The non-praise song was sent to me by Fr. Kyle Mietzner because he knows I know about the thing that is the Shaggs. Uff. He said that the Vivian Girls sounds like what the Shaggs would sound like if they could actually sing together. And it's not half bad.
I had to look up the lyrics and when I did, boy howdy, it sounded like a praise song. So I was moved to search for a real praise song and have this little contest. This was listed as the fourth most popular praise song currently running in American Evangelical circles. The most popular version seems to be by one Kari Jobe - with whom the the Texas District of the LCMS had a spot of trouble some years ago. Egads, this video is beyond creepy. And the comments: ultra beyond creepy.
Folks, if you import non-Lutheran stuff into your Lutheran church it won't be, you know, so Lutheran anymore.
+HRC
While I agree with your point, it strikes me that the more teaching and satire that confessionals make towards our more liberal brothers the more likely it will be that they are going to do what they do anyway or with even more force.
ReplyDeleteAndrew,
ReplyDeleteThere are some who won't be convinced - you are right about that. For any that still can be, having to face up to just how bad this stuff is might be the only thing to shock them awake.
+HRC
Andrew-
ReplyDeleteI get your point, but if this Kari Jobe tune is being used by Lutherans, it pleads to be mocked. She should release it as a pop ballad and make a zillion dollars, as I would guess that if anyone heard it on a pop station they would think that it is about some chick talking about boyfriend/latest hookup.
@Rev BT But then she would not be getting people to hold their arms out, rock slowly back and forth, and look up to heaven and think they are *communing* with God.
ReplyDeleteIronically, Ms. Jobe would find what she seeks in the Evangelical Lutheran Church. She desires to sit at his feet and drink from his cup. Yet, she rejects how Christ promises to do so in the Lord's Supper.
ReplyDelete"Folks, if you import non-Lutheran stuff into your Lutheran church it won't be, you know, so Lutheran anymore."
ReplyDeletePastor,
That is the whole point. I am pretty sure that the ones importing this into their churches are doing that for this very reason. That way they can remove misconceptions at the door and bring people in.
I am not arguing for bringing in non-Lutheran stuff, but am convinced that making fun of it is not going to help and only convince them that they are on the right track.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteIf they want to be less Lutheran then we really don't have much to discuss with them, do we? I mean, if they really frame it that way in their own minds.
+HRC
This is fairly common Pentecostal behaviour, only the song is different with the soft rock tones. The LC-MS could always have hauled in the crowds with camp songs and revivals, but Pietism was something the Saxons already knew they didn't want when they left Germany.
ReplyDeleteDid you see the musical resources they had there? Did I see a small orchestra? The size of that choir. You give me that in almost any Lutheran church and I could blow them out of the water every Sunday. They are performing modest music well. We are performing excellent music poorly, or not at all. We have a severe problem with execution, design, and taste exacerbated by lack of money.
And crypto-Schwaermerei who want us to stay focused on just one thing all the time, but passionately, very passionately. Because God forbid that some of us should be called to be feet, and others hands, and others eyes, ...
Some of us have the call to make the service of God a beautiful thing.
This song hurts my ears...
ReplyDelete"Lay back against you and breathe" -- Ouch, Eee! That should be "LIE back against you...!!!"
While I agree with your point, it strikes me that the more teaching and satire that confessionals make towards our more liberal brothers the more likely it will be that they are going to do what they do anyway or with even more force.
ReplyDeleteI get a lot more hacked off for being called a liberal (or "more liberal" — really? How am I more liberal?)) than I do for people mocking this sorta stuff.
I don't mind the mocking, cause I look at it and think "Well, I don't do that," so its all good. That is part of the problem of hitting stuff like this—for me it doesn't hit to close to home.
But I really stopped on by to make a (somewhat-snarky) comment in response to Fr Curtis' statement:
Folks, if you import non-Lutheran stuff into your Lutheran church it won't be, you know, so Lutheran anymore.
Except of course if it is Roman Catholic—that can imported with impunity. :)
mqll: "Except of course if it is Roman Catholic—that can imported with impunity. :)"
ReplyDeleteHear, hear! I've had it up to here with the 3-yr lectionary, free-standing altars, and all the other Romanist nonsense in our midst.
Fr. Louderback,
ReplyDeleteI refer you to the conclusion to Part I of the AC and to its final conclusion:
"5] This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. . . . 8] For it is a false and malicious charge that all the ceremonies, all the things instituted of old, are abolished in our churches. 9] But it has been a common complaint that some abuses were connected with the ordinary rites. These, inasmuch as they could not be approved with a good conscience, have been to some extent corrected."
"Only those things have been recounted whereof we thought that it was necessary to speak, in order that it might be understood that in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic. For it is manifest that we have taken most diligent care that no new and ungodly doctrine should creep into our churches."
That, according to the Lutheran Confessions, is what Lutherans are like: nothing in ceremonies contrary to the Church Catholic.
+HRC
Pastor Louderback,
ReplyDeleteLiberal in the kindest possible way... Don't get hacked off with the term...
Pastor H.R.,
ReplyDeleteI never said that they wanted to be less Lutheran.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteAnd after many years of discussion with various folks of this persuasion, I am convinced that that is exactly what many of them want. The problem, no doubt, lies partially in the fact of what they contend the word "Lutheran denotes." But isn't that always the rub? Will the real X please stand up. . .
+HRC
Intrigued by this whole phenomenon (British Evangelicalism is still more John Stott than Rick Warren, thankfully), I did a little YouTube trawl of the artist. She states in an interview that her job is to connect people to God.
ReplyDeleteWhich is the whole point: this kind of stuff is designed to be sacramental. Communing with the Lord in the air by means of emotions.
Dr. John Kleinig has exposed this whole neo-Pentecostal sacrament-thing and provided a Lutheran response in this excellent article. Go ahead and download, read & enjoy! Courtesy of you friends in England.
Andrew,
ReplyDeletePastor Louderback,
Liberal in the kindest possible way... Don't get hacked off with the term...
Uh...how about you explain exactly what is "liberal" about it? I mean, does the word "liberal" have an appropriate meaning that can be assigned to what I do? Or is it merely some shorthand for "I disagree."
Can I call you a liberal? Does that make any sense?
I mean, I'm not as hacked off as I might come across with this. I just don't understand what you mean by the term.
Pastor Louderback,
ReplyDeleteNever called you a liberal, but the word should not have a negative connotation. Am I a liberal? Depends who you ask, I left the Orthodox church to join a bunch of liberals in the LCMS. According to them.
I think there is a confusion between agape and eros. The people at the Kari Jobe concert look like they need a cold shower.
ReplyDeleteAndrew,
ReplyDeleteIf a word has no meaning, then don't use it and use a word that does. If you use a word, you ought to know what you meant.
You said:
While I agree with your point, it strikes me that the more teaching and satire that confessionals make towards our more liberal brothers the more likely it will be that they are going to do what they do anyway or with even more force.
How exactly are we the more liberal brothers? What does this mean?
And yes, I'd ask the same question to your Orthodox brothers. Exactly how are we in the LCMS liberals? It is a legit question.
Language is only useful as far as words carry meaning for the most people. When we distort words, we distort language.
a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts
ReplyDeleteb archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2
a : marked by generosity : openhanded <a liberal giver
: given or provided in a generous and openhanded way
c : ample, full
3
obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious
4
: not literal or strict : loose
5
: broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6
a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism
b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives
Pastor Louderback,
I was thinking of definition number 5, broad minded. I apologize for causing offense to you; I did not realize it would be a sore spot.I could have used missional which my district has a fondness for and has been identified as a term on this site.
My point is that I do not believe that satire and mockery are going to help matters. I am not sure that making fun of someone's worship (wrong worship or not) while feeling virtuous for worshiping in a correct matter really benefits anything.
Pastor Louderback,
ReplyDeleteDefinition number 5 also fits what my former priest told me. He says that Lutherans gave up the historic liturgy (Western Rite) when Luther took a scalpel to it. See traditional forms.
I don't buy that, but there you go.