tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post679933872847821787..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: Are you an Antinomian?Pr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-70218299319093185082013-12-02T17:55:30.351-06:002013-12-02T17:55:30.351-06:00Pr. Gallas:
That quotation from Urbanus Rhegius&#...Pr. Gallas:<br /><br />That quotation from Urbanus Rhegius' homiletical handbook was an enlightening one when I read it the first time. <br /><br />I looked through it when I heard one of my Circuit brothers speaking about this topic, especially the rewards of good works. To my mind, it sounded "unLutheran". But then reading through Rhegius' handbook, which Chemnitz quotes in his Loci Theologici, made me do a real double take. I'm glad that I did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-32292227361778455902013-12-02T15:18:14.990-06:002013-12-02T15:18:14.990-06:00Fascinating discussion. I'm being stretched. ...Fascinating discussion. I'm being stretched. <br /><br />Out of curiosity, I wanted to see if Urbanus Rhegius's preaching handbook of 1535 had anything to say about this. It is interesting to note that the handbook was written approximately 30 years before Chemnitz's Examination. <br /><br />Here is what I discovered of Rhegius:<br /><br />Sixth, although they [good works] do not merit ineffable treasures like forgiveness of sins, justification, liberation from death and the devil (for only Christ Jesus does that), nevertheless on the basis of God's freely given promise they do merit physical and spiritual rewards, both in this life and after this life. Not that God owes us anything, but because he promised out of his mercy and is trustworthy, he will therefore give us these things for the sake of his glorious name, as it is written in the seventeenth chapter of Jeremiah [Jer 17:10]: "I the Lord test the mind and search the heart, to give to all according to their ways, according to the fruit of their doings." And in the sixteenth chapter of Matthew [Mt 16:27]: "For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done." The same in Romans 2 [Rom 2:6]. Again Christ shows clearly enough in the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew how pleasing to him are the good works which proceed from faith, because he says: "I was hungry and you gave me to . . . drink" [Mt 25:35].''<br />(Urbanus Rhegius, Preaching the Reformation, 51)<br />Pr. David Gallashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05104203636677750374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-2576045504231250402013-12-02T08:16:58.411-06:002013-12-02T08:16:58.411-06:00Seth,
Everything I have mentioned is a direct re...Seth, <br /><br />Everything I have mentioned is a direct reference to the actions and statements of the men behind this blog. The discussion about authority, for example, is in reference to a recent interview on Issues, etc. with David Petersen. Everything I have mentioned is quite clear and well known to the people I am actually addressing. I have not written a 20,000 words, provided 30 hyperlinks, and given a bibliography because 1) the people I am addressing already know what I'm talking about, 2) I don't have that kind of time, 3) If I did, those who want to deny and pretend like this isn't real would continue to do so anyway, 4) Because my comments would probably just be deleted, and 5) Because most of the people who will even read this, like yourself, share the same interests, tastes, views, predispositions, and personality characteristics as the authors.<br /><br />Again, for me this is not simply an esoteric and academic discussion about this particular post that I am engaged in while I take a break from my super sophisticated intellectual pursuits and my life of bodily and spiritual rewards. I am responding to the agenda of the men behind this blog. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729711062909123028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-28924004584539756362013-12-01T21:55:52.728-06:002013-12-01T21:55:52.728-06:00L Brown:
Forgive me, but as an outsider simply lo...L Brown:<br /><br />Forgive me, but as an outsider simply looking in, I do have to say that it does seem like you're "upset about nothing," mostly because all you have done is spoken in vague terms about your resentment, casting about nebulous words such as "authority," "manipulation," "agenda". No examples, no proofs, no nothing. Just pure, unabashed vitriol. <br /><br />Frankly, I have found this entire discussion enlightening, intriguing, and frustrating all at the same time. Even amongst those here who disagree, they still engaged in honest and kindly debate. Your two posts, at least to me as an outsider, came out of nowhere. Perhaps you're just an angry man doing the Lord's work? <br /><br />For fear of seeming pious, I will eschew the tiny cross.<br /><br />To everyone else - thanks for the discussion. I appreciate it greatly. <br /><br />VDMA - SethSeth https://www.blogger.com/profile/15105526643778491648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-18431350660617076552013-12-01T18:20:11.677-06:002013-12-01T18:20:11.677-06:00Also, Steve and Pr. McCain, it's great to &quo...Also, Steve and Pr. McCain, it's great to "see" you both online again. :)Future Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03862214936693708244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-23290011729441731272013-12-01T18:17:40.303-06:002013-12-01T18:17:40.303-06:00You are correct, Steve. I find a lot of parallels...You are correct, Steve. I find a lot of parallels in the lives of Luther and Wesley, and it's no surprise to me that Wesley found his faith-centered conviction through Luther's preface. They were both people who struggled over the issue of faith; Wesley's difficulties over the issue being nearly as tormented as that of Luther. My suspicion is that Wesley found his own story in Luther's insights. <br /><br />I also tend to see Wesley primarily as a pastoral theologian, much like I see Luther. As a friend recently mentioned to me, a key difference between the two is that Luther had second and third generation dogmatic theologians to bring all of his thoughts to a coherent expression. Methodists never really had that, but U.S. Methodists didn't really want it, either. By the time Methodism came to the U.S., the objective assumptions of Wesley were dropped for frontier pietism, and the sacraments were lost somewhere in the Atlantic. Any attempt at Anglican-styled Methodism has always worked against the grain of American Methodism, a reality I and other friends wrestle with daily. It's a tough way to go, being a high churchman of the Wesleyan persuasion. :)Future Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03862214936693708244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-34638441290597470092013-12-01T17:34:27.462-06:002013-12-01T17:34:27.462-06:00As I said, my problem is what this is all being us...As I said, my problem is what this is all being used to advance. If I didn't see where this train was headed, I would respect your authority and your office and take this as something to reflect on and think over. That's what I used to do. And after a while, it almost broke my mind and my spirit.<br /><br />But now I am familiar with your agenda. From personal experience and from carefully reading your blogs and the comments. So I have to see this in the context of your crusade against the forces of evil who have made pastors "afraid of their authority". I was foolishly once a supporter of what I thought your agenda was. But I should have realized from day one that any group which refers to its own statement of purpose as a "manifesto" is bad news.<br /><br />Personally, I think people (whether politicians or pastors) who refer to their own writings as a "manifesto" are to be avoided like the plague. I believe it is often an indication that someone has confused their own opinions, preferences, and views with THE TRUTH. This is how cult leaders think.<br /><br />Everything I have seen up close and personal for myself is being slowly rolled out across the LCMS. You all say the same words. You all give the same examples. You all employ the same tactics. And you are all OBSESSED with systematically and methodically using your brains, manipulation of personal relationships, guilt trips, recruitment of like-minded malcontents from other churches, and legalism to assert your "authority". When your brethren attack, disparage, and complain about the District Presidents and the Synod, that ISN'T "anti-clericalsim". But if someone does half as much to them, that IS "anti-clericalsim". Heads I win, tails you lose. How nice. And I am slowly realizing who really stands where in all this.<br /><br />Putting "God bless" and a pious little cross at the end of your comments may be a great passive-aggressive technique for making me look like I'm upset about nothing and you're just a kind man doing the Lord's work. But for those paying attention, it doesn't work.<br /><br />What are really great sermons supposed to be about? Whether women can be combat pilots in the Air Force? Foreign policy? Whether the Paleo diet was prescribed by God? How Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and Ayn Rand are the new Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? How homeschooling through high school is the only way to be a good parent? Or maybe just how anyone who isn't doing and supporting whatever that particular pastor and his network of buddies want is an "alligator" and must be either broken or driven out.<br /><br />I used to be annoyed with people who just came in, got their bread and wine, and got out. As quickly as possible. And stayed away from Bible Study and everything else. Now I totally understand.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729711062909123028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-52247386543055848182013-12-01T14:55:14.633-06:002013-12-01T14:55:14.633-06:00Among Methodist May 24, 1738 is celebrated as the ...Among Methodist May 24, 1738 is celebrated as the day Wesley had his "Aldersgate" experience. He was listening to somebody read Luther's Preface to his commentary on Romans and said he felt his heart "strangely warmed." Declaring: "I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death."Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-35662131154838589652013-12-01T10:35:24.325-06:002013-12-01T10:35:24.325-06:00I do believe that Wesley came to a living faith as...I do believe that Wesley came to a living faith as he listened to a reading of Luther's preface to his commentary on Romans.<br />Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-49995139199484703072013-11-30T17:45:50.685-06:002013-11-30T17:45:50.685-06:00Exactly.
We don't really have much to do with...Exactly.<br /><br />We don't really have much to do with the ELCA either.<br /><br />I guess we would consider ourselves centrist Confessional Lutherans.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-33478707083024738382013-11-30T16:16:31.322-06:002013-11-30T16:16:31.322-06:00Mr. Brown,
It's a pretty extended quote that ...Mr. Brown,<br /><br />It's a pretty extended quote that I posted and I included a citation where his whole discussion of the issue can be found. And in the comments the issue of the cross - of suffering for the sake of the good - has also been addressed. So I don't think the cherry picking/out of context complaint is justified.<br /><br />I really don't know how to respond to the rest of the anger you express here- you seem to me to be reading a lot between the lines that's just not there.<br /><br />God bless,<br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-30108770770966058272013-11-30T14:37:46.241-06:002013-11-30T14:37:46.241-06:00This post does a very clever job of cherry picking...This post does a very clever job of cherry picking a quote, on an emotional and difficult issue, giving no context or balance, and then condemning those who offer objections or concerns as being heretics.<br /><br />Great way to get comments and page views and attention. Lousy way to handle a serious issue that can trouble people who suffer and aren't middle class American Lutheran pastors with great intellectual gifts, wonderful families, and all the bodily rewards to prove how awesome they are.<br /><br />But on the plus side, it's good to know that all the folks who have nice things in this life deserve them and are simply better people. Further proof that Jesus was a libertarian. And that pastors, excuse me, FATHERS, (especially fathers like the amazing Heath Curtis, Larry Beane, and David Petersen, et al) are superior humans. Which is why they shouldn't be "afraid of their authority" as Petersen explained in his recent Issues, Etc. interview. They should tell the government what policies to have, and tell their people how to eat, how to live, how to vote, how to think, and how the world should work. And anyone who disagrees, well, enjoy hell.<br /><br />And no, I do not have a problem with accurately quoting Scripture and the Confessions. The problem is quoting one side of an issue where there is tension without giving equal weight to the other. The problem is using words like "tension" and "paradox" to cover up other things. The problem is what this is all being used to advance. And it ain't Christianity. This isn't about good works. This is about doing what a particular pastor says are good works. And it is about people who get paid to come to church and write blog posts, patting themselves on the back for being better than everyone else.<br /><br /> I used to think the Confessional Lutheran revival was about more traditional and proper worship, where practice is concerned. And more solid preaching and teaching, where doctrine is concerned. I continue to be shown that it is really about a group of men who are using God and the Lutheran faith to build their own kingdom. With the help of their wannabe male underlings and adoring ladies cheering them on.<br /><br />But then again I've probably just been poisoned by "Americanism" and would be better off if I learned to be more like the author and earn my rewards.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729711062909123028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-88910924221042837252013-11-30T10:09:52.325-06:002013-11-30T10:09:52.325-06:00Thanks for sharing, Adam, and I hope you make your...Thanks for sharing, Adam, and I hope you make your way back into confessional Lutheranism. God bless.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-81960685048523157362013-11-30T10:08:44.964-06:002013-11-30T10:08:44.964-06:00It is my understanding that Mr. Martin is a Luther...It is my understanding that Mr. Martin is a Lutheran layman and a member of a non-LCMS congregation, correct Mr. Martin?Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-88216248584877766622013-11-30T08:55:35.966-06:002013-11-30T08:55:35.966-06:00Oh! And as to why the UMC...Because I like Wesley ...Oh! And as to why the UMC...Because I like Wesley and I'm higher church than the other Wesleyan bodies...and I grew up in it. Though they disagree one some points, I think it might surprise some folks how similar Luther and Wesley are on many points...particularly sanctification. I recently read through some of Luther's Commentary on Genesis and was surprised to see how much it reminded me of Wesley regarding the restoration of the imago dei. They aren't connected at the hip, but they're pretty darn close on a lot of things.Future Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03862214936693708244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-8230513351799597802013-11-30T08:45:20.812-06:002013-11-30T08:45:20.812-06:00I didn't actually leave for the UMC. I left f...I didn't actually leave for the UMC. I left for Orthodoxy and did a UMC end-around. Weird, I know. It's a long and humbling story, and not one I would want to entirely share in a public space. Having said that, would I have left the LCMS had I witnessed in the LCMS the sort of piety I am seeing in the Chemnitz and Gerhard quotes offered above? I'm not sure, but the decision would have been far more difficult. As a new convert to the LCMS I just couldn't wrap my mind around the sort of Fordean law theology that seemed to me the overwhelming culture of the LCMS. It didn't make it easy to leave, as I loved, and love, much about the LCMS. I reached a point, though, that I just couldn't make sense of what I perceived to be the "weak on sanctification" culture.<br /><br />I have learned a lesson, though. If you love a theology, stay in the imperfect place you're currently in and work to make that place more true to the theology it espouses. I should have listened to my pastor, and I should have been patient enough to figure out what I don't know. My presence here probably gives some indication that I've never entirely given up the LCMS, pietistic as that may sound. :)Future Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03862214936693708244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-34469650203307826652013-11-30T06:15:06.899-06:002013-11-30T06:15:06.899-06:00OK, we have to ask: How in the world, and why in t...OK, we have to ask: How in the world, and why in the world, did you leave Lutheranism for UMC style Methodism?Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-16538287586491200232013-11-29T23:10:12.497-06:002013-11-29T23:10:12.497-06:00The law is written upon our hearts.
We know what ...The law is written upon our hearts.<br /><br />We know what to do.<br /><br />We just flat out refuse to do it so much of the time.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-72279307087853647082013-11-29T21:09:52.221-06:002013-11-29T21:09:52.221-06:00As a former LCMS member who is currently a UMC lic...As a former LCMS member who is currently a UMC licensed local pastor, I can state that it was very difficult to find the sentiment expressed by Chemnitz and Pastor Curtis within the LCMS as little as five years ago. I believe Pastor McCain was publicly making 3rd purpose appeals, but he was something of a voice in the wilderness. Fordean law thinking DID clearly rule the day, and I at least had the impression that the denomination does not believe the law has any function outside the purpose of crushing the sinner to prepare the way for the gospel. To his credit, my pastor expressed to me that I was wrong on that point before I left, but I had assumed the confessions effectually dead on 3rd use theology, even as the teaching was clearly within the confessions. It is wonderful that this issue is being raised, and I look forward to seeing how the research being conducted will shape the future of the LCMS.<br /><br />Adam RoeFuture Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03862214936693708244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-83811476531235603922013-11-29T16:22:21.149-06:002013-11-29T16:22:21.149-06:00Depends on what you mean by "Lutherans."...Depends on what you mean by "Lutherans." Those of us who subscribe to the Formula settled it in 1577. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-49772218775305848522013-11-29T16:03:12.118-06:002013-11-29T16:03:12.118-06:00Well, I called it right on Forde...Well, I called it right on Forde...Pr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-76430263576628459022013-11-29T14:43:02.080-06:002013-11-29T14:43:02.080-06:00"Luther never talked about a third use of the..."Luther never talked about a third use of the law."<br /><br />Wrong.<br /><br />See:<br /><br />http://www.cph.org/p-19257-friends-of-the-law-luthers-use-of-the-law-for-the-christian-life.aspx?SearchTerm=friends%20of%20the%20lawRev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-12671499387502469402013-11-29T14:07:07.019-06:002013-11-29T14:07:07.019-06:00Like I said, Rev. Beane, the BoC were great docume...Like I said, Rev. Beane, the BoC were great documents, but they written in an atmosphere of great tumult. They could have been better. And they are NOT Holy Scripture, as good as they are.<br /><br />I'll let you have the last word since I'm headed out the door to work.<br /><br />Thanks, Pastor.<br /><br />Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-29624692898158710602013-11-29T13:32:08.638-06:002013-11-29T13:32:08.638-06:00So, the Book of a Concord is a cafeteria? How doe...So, the Book of a Concord is a cafeteria? How does that work? Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-18644301259314855242013-11-29T13:30:02.047-06:002013-11-29T13:30:02.047-06:00You shouldn't add to it, nor subtract from it....You shouldn't add to it, nor subtract from it. Our Lord's preaching is often exhortatory not against christology, but as christology: "Go and sin no more," "Go and do likewise," etc. Our Lord forgives completely, and also exhorts us to the end (telos) of the law. There is an eschatology that gospel reductionism misses out on. Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.com