tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post6572040245407165735..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: The place of "I forgive you..." and a poll on omitting the PreparationPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-28615953504825264752010-10-27T16:34:33.114-05:002010-10-27T16:34:33.114-05:00Fr. William,
No one has ever mentioned it - but s...Fr. William,<br /><br />No one has ever mentioned it - but since they are here for just a service or two I really wouldn't expect it. Folks can be much more tolerant of stuff they don't like in other people's pastors :)<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-11738821901157553532010-10-27T15:49:03.793-05:002010-10-27T15:49:03.793-05:00Have you had any members ask about it? Each time ...Have you had any members ask about it? Each time we do not use the public absolution I have members who express disappointment. <br /><br />About the HH private - wordy was par for the course in that order. Yes, the whole thing would have been read aloud!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-18669180487292068892010-10-26T22:02:46.618-05:002010-10-26T22:02:46.618-05:00Susan,
When I say 'a Luther quotation' I&...Susan,<br /><br />When I say 'a Luther quotation' I'm speaking of his private writings, not the Confessions. <br /><br />Luther's entire exhortation to confession (which is actually not part of the Confessions, but an appendix that is not part of the 1580 BOC) is kind of odd. On the one hand he says "no coercion" then on the other hand he says that he won't consider you a Christian if you don't go to Confession and that he will hand you back over to the Pope to be forced to go. <br /><br />My pastoral practice is to follow one of the options - the Declaration of Grace - in our hymnals for the public Divine Service and to preach on the benefits of coming to Holy Absolution as it is spelled out in the Small Catechism. I can't see how following one of our Orders and preaching on the Catechism is coercion. But it certainly is encouragement.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-18488991931290117942010-10-26T21:40:17.747-05:002010-10-26T21:40:17.747-05:00Pastor Curtis initially wrote that some Lutherans ...Pastor Curtis initially wrote that some Lutherans may think, "Why go to Confession 'for the sake of the absolution' if I get the very same absolution each and every Sunday?" And with regard to omitting the corporate absolution from the Divine Service, he concluded with, "Has it had any affect on the number of people who seek the Sacrament of Absolution?"<br /><br />Pastor C, you say that a Luther quote is not a prooftext. But what about the Confessions themselves? What I'm hearing from you sounds as if taking away the corporate absolution might prod people into desiring the absolution privately. And I'm trying to reconcile that with the line at the end of the Large Catechism which says that we never use coercion to get people to come to private confession. Do you think that some members who have never been to private confession may see the elimination of corporate confession precisely as coercion?Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16307213773466556564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-79221875308756433142010-10-26T16:09:38.965-05:002010-10-26T16:09:38.965-05:00At least we can agree on this important theologica...At least we can agree on this important theological point: A Luther quotation does not a prooftext make.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-77905215955115920682010-10-26T15:11:28.354-05:002010-10-26T15:11:28.354-05:00I think you push the distinction too far. This wo...I think you push the distinction too far. This would be like saying that Baptism doesn't really unite you to Christ, because in the Supper we receive Christ's Body and Blood, so Baptism really isn't a Body of Christ thing. The focus on the specific propria is clouding the reality that whatever means, Christ is given. <br /><br />God overwhelms us with many means of grace, many avenues and vehicles of grace, and they all bring forgiveness and life and salvation (for wherever there is forgiveness, there also is life and salvation -- and I'd say if you give salvation, you also give life and forgiveness, and if you give life, you also give forgiveness and salvation). <br /><br />I also think you end up slightly tweaking objective and subjective just slightly. To preach is to proclaim an objective reality. When I hear the objective reality, I apprehend it subjectively. I do not need the specific "Te absolvo" to make that "actual" or real - the Objective brings about subjective reality. <br /><br />Of course, I see the full, unbridled Gospel all the time in whatever I do as pastor. My job is to forgive. Whether I preach, baptize, hear confession, administer the sacrament - I forgive. What I do... and not only when I say "Te absolvo". <br /><br />You ought to buy what Luther says here =o)<br /><br />But this means I don't want to hear a single thing about "Well Luther says" about perpetual virginity next time it comes up =o)Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-84514504679736533362010-10-26T14:25:57.605-05:002010-10-26T14:25:57.605-05:00I could be more clear - let me try to say it this ...I could be more clear - let me try to say it this way. <br /><br />To proclaim forgiveness is to proclaim an objective reality: Your sins are forgiven before the court of heaven by the blood of Christ. Or: You are baptized. <br /><br />To do forgiveness, to actually forgive sins, is, well, to actually forgive sins: I forgive you. I baptize you. <br /><br />Both important - but both different. Otherwise, why does Jesus institute both preaching and absolution? Different, though related, gifts. <br /><br />Yes, I know Luther speaks differently: I just don't buy it.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-14900688834791608852010-10-26T14:00:05.969-05:002010-10-26T14:00:05.969-05:00Preaching forgiveness is not the same as forgiving...Preaching forgiveness is not the same as forgiving someone. <br /><br />I really think this is uncontroversial. Again, words mean things. If you say "I forgive all of you yours sins" in your sermon, then you are absolving in your sermon. Otherwise, you are doing something else. <br /><br />For the logicians: <br />Let,<br /><br />A = Absolution<br />F = "I forgive"<br /><br />A iff F.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-15596014249560872512010-10-26T10:56:51.490-05:002010-10-26T10:56:51.490-05:00And here I think I see where you and I have quite ...And here I think I see where you and I have quite a different view of what preaching is. You note: "To put it another way: Forgiving someone is different than preaching about forgiveness." I do not preach *about* forgiveness, nor about Christ. I preach forgiveness. I do not preach about the Gospel, I preach the Gospel, and that Gospel does what it says.<br /><br />The Word is efficacious. Even "remember that you are forgiven" makes and causes one to remember (although rarely would I couch "you are forgiven" unless it is to be a "during this week, remember" - a blessing for the future). <br /><br />Doesn't preaching forgive? Doesn't it give anything? Is it merely empty words? Is preaching merely what the reformed teach about the Supper (a call to remember something that isn't actually happening here but only happened elsewhere) - or is is the giving of the life giving Gospel that creates faith and gives forgiveness?<br /><br />I think in your zeal for the Absolvo Te you undercut and gut the proclamation of the Gospel... almost like someone who would say that the Supper is so wonderful and that Baptism is. . . well, it's just not the fullness of the Supper. It seems as though you focus so much on the distinctiveness of Absolvo te that you deny the efficacy of the Gospel elsewhere. <br /><br />I would note the Gospel for last Sunday - when Jesus says, "Go, your son will live" - that is performative. Jesus doesn't have to say - "I heal your son." When the Word of God proclaims reality, it becomes real. Likewise, when I proclaim the Word of God, "You are forgiven" - it happens. I don't have to say that it is happening, it does, because the Word of God does what it says, makes real what it proclaims, is creative. It's not the structure or format that brings this about, but the proclamation of the Word itself.<br /><br />You are married... not the Word of God or the Gospel. You are under arrest - not the Word of God. Nor is "You are in jail." But what we are given to preach and proclaim - that is the Word of God, and that is reality.<br /><br />(As a note - I'd contend that pronounce you man and wife isn't "speech act" - it announces that you have witnessed the verbal promise of the couple - you don't marry them. I've only married one person - my wife. I've pronounced many to be married)Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-9816718505101563292010-10-26T09:43:55.266-05:002010-10-26T09:43:55.266-05:00"I forgive thee" is a sacramental act, a..."I forgive thee" is a sacramental act, a speech act, words that actually do what they say. Saying in a sermon "remember that your sins are forgiven in Christ" is not a speech act; they are words to make a statement not perform an action. <br /><br />Other examples of speech acts:<br />* I pronounce you man and wife.<br />* I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit<br />* You are under arrest. <br /><br />And their non-speech act equivalents:<br />* Since you are married, love one another.<br />* You, beloved, are the baptized people of God.<br />* You, sir, are sitting in a jail cell. <br /><br />Do we say that we are baptizing people when we say to them "You are baptized" in a sermon? Do we say that we are marrying people when we say, "You are husband and wife" in a sermon or a counseling session? <br /><br />That's the difference - and it is a vast difference. <br /><br />To put it another way: Forgiving someone is different than preaching about forgiveness. Saying "I forgive your sins" does what it says by virtue of Jesus' Institution of Absolution; saying "You are the forgiven people of God" in a sermon is a call to remembrance of the grace given in Absolution. Both are important and necessary, but they are two different things. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-62610702057472340572010-10-26T07:54:07.116-05:002010-10-26T07:54:07.116-05:00Fr. Curtis,
Again, for clarification. There are ...Fr. Curtis,<br /><br />Again, for clarification. There are differing ways of speaking the Word, and I associate the Church, the place to which I am called, as the place for directness. To the world at large, in abstract. As a means of blessing, "may". But to the community of the Baptized, I am direct. When I preach, I do not refrain from speaking directly about what "your baptism gives you" even if there is a Baptist visitor there who doesn't believe that baptism does that. Their lack of belief doesn't change what is given (although without faith one may not apprehend).<br /><br />Thus I am used to preaching with a strong second person focus. You are baptized. Christ has died for you, you are forgiven (absolveris).<br /><br />What of that construction - absolveris? (At least I think it is an "e" verb - I only hear it in the 1st singular, so I'm not completely sure) It is direct. Does it ring to you the same as absolvo te? I ask because if they ring the same, then then focus is on the recipient - the you. If they ring different and absolve te is viewed as irresponsible, it would be a focus upon "ego" - the agent - the idea that the speaker is the active agent of the directness (unless there is another distinction that you see).<br /><br />I tend to think of these two constructions as primarily the same - because whether active or passive, they are applied to "you" directly. And if a certain "you" does not receive this Word by faith... the Word is still true, it still gives Christ and His forgiveness, even though they reject Him. And, as I don't have a 1 Corinthians 11 for impenitent eavesdroppers or hypocrites, nor has there been a time where those were excluded from the service of the Word by the orthodox Church (with perhaps the exception of the lapsi, but when the Church is not yet public, there are some weird dynamics), I don't view either construction as dangerous or reckless.<br /><br />What is your take on the difference (or lack there of) between absolve te and absolveris?Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-79607588646339458672010-10-25T21:48:49.737-05:002010-10-25T21:48:49.737-05:00Do you think that the long paragraph for the indiv...Do you think that the long paragraph for the individual rite is actually meant to be read or was it a sort of Vademecum?<br /><br />It's a bit wordy.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-66380942770011690542010-10-25T21:06:56.413-05:002010-10-25T21:06:56.413-05:00Note the "indicative operative" was in t...Note the "indicative operative" was in the public but not the private and that the private is, despite that, actually far more comforting!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-69983915151670964602010-10-25T21:05:30.283-05:002010-10-25T21:05:30.283-05:00Lutheran liturgy historically offered both; rather...Lutheran liturgy historically offered both; rather than a choice of one or the other.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-15340975071553054172010-10-25T21:05:01.190-05:002010-10-25T21:05:01.190-05:00Private absolution from Herzog Heinrich: "Th...Private absolution from Herzog Heinrich: "The almighty God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ would be gracious and merciful to you. He wants to forgive you all your sins, and this because his dear Son Jesus Christ has suffered for them and died for them. In the name of that same Jesus Christ, because he has mandated me to do this, in the power of his words where he said: 'Whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven,' I say to you that all your sins are forgiven. They cannot hold you captive. They are altogether forgiven you as abundantly and completely as was won for you by Jesus Christ through his suffering and death, and which he commanded to be proclaimed in all the world through the Gospel, and this is now said to you, to comfort and strengthen you, as I now speak this to you in the name of the Lord Christ, for you to receive it gladly, setting your conscience at peace, as with a faith that cannot be shaken, your sins are surely forgiven you, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Go forth in peace."William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-18616477075422327992010-10-25T21:04:12.243-05:002010-10-25T21:04:12.243-05:00Public Absolution from Herzog Heinrich: "Upo...Public Absolution from Herzog Heinrich: "Upon this your confession, I, by virtue of my office, as a called and ordained servants of the Word, announce the grace of God unto all of you who heartily repent of your sins, believe on Jesus Christ, and sincerely and earnestly purpose by the assistance of God the Holy Ghost henceforth to amend your sinful lives, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins in the name of God + the Father, God + the Son, and God + the Holy Ghost. Amen."William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-38274120239588308502010-10-25T20:58:51.771-05:002010-10-25T20:58:51.771-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-53787495647338982422010-10-25T19:27:17.747-05:002010-10-25T19:27:17.747-05:001. Forgiveness can be declared in the abstract (Go...1. Forgiveness can be declared in the abstract (God forgives sinners for Christ's sake), it can be prayed for (God grant us all forgiveness), or it can be directly given (I forgive thee.). Each of those has its place - one should not meld them all into one generic category and say, Aw shucks, forgiveness is forgiveness. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-47578445429890613882010-10-25T18:50:21.334-05:002010-10-25T18:50:21.334-05:001. I'm not sure, for how can there be peace w...1. I'm not sure, for how can there be peace with out forgiveness? I guess it boils down to whether or not forgiveness is given with words other than "I forgive" - and I would tend towards yes.<br /><br />2. I think I lean more towards viewing the heterodox more as the weak in faith who for their own sake must be kept from the supper, as opposed to those engaged in manifest immorality. isn't false doctrine manifest immorality -- for a teacher or clergy or apostate, I'd say yes. Otherwise, I'd just chalk it up to weakness of faith.<br /><br />3. Anyone?Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-43441020740913493052010-10-25T18:38:57.447-05:002010-10-25T18:38:57.447-05:001. I'm arguing that "Peace be with you&qu...1. I'm arguing that "Peace be with you" is not an absolution. It is a Gospel word, but not an absolution. I do not think "absolution in the wide sense" is a useful or helpful category. To absolve means to say "I forgive." Without that word, it's no absolution: it might be a Gospel proclamation, a prayer, a declaration, a statement, but not an absolution. <br /><br />2. I agree that refusing to commune someone is somewhat different from saying to them, "Thy sins are bound." But let's be blunt: we are saying that a person we won't commune is not on the right state of spiritual wholeness to receive the forgiveness of their sins through the Sacrament. That is, they are living in a state of unrepentance (though it may be an unrepentance borne of ignorance rather than malice). I don't think it behooves us to soften that. To enter your analogy: it might not be my job to punish my neighbor's kid, but I can't help but notice he's all wrong and will not shy away from telling him so and that he needs to mend his ways.<br /><br />3. Beats me. Perhaps one of the brothers who follows that practice can answer your question.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-21269227026018210622010-10-25T14:25:27.247-05:002010-10-25T14:25:27.247-05:00Fr. Curtis,
1. As a question (that is leading). ...Fr. Curtis,<br /><br />1. As a question (that is leading). You make a distinction between the wide usage of "absolution" and the narrow (absolvo te), beteween general and specific. While I know that it is important to keep the distinction clear between wide usages and narrow usages, other than what you propose here, is there a time where we exclude the specific use from the general?<br /><br />For example, when we speak of "Law" in the wide, that also includes "Law" in the narrow. When we speak of "Gospel" in the wide, that also includes the narrow. It seems as if you allow for absolution in the wide sense to be used in a corporate setting but dislike the narrow. I can't think of any other usage that allows the wide use of a term in a setting while proscribing it's narrow use. Thus your distinction here sort of sits poorly with me. (Also, if you have on hand links to those posts whereby frequent readers would be familiar with your qualms with Luther, I wouldn't mind seeing them)<br /><br />2. The purpose of not admitting one to the altar is not to retain their sin (if they aren't of my Church, not my job), but to keep them from falling into larger sin. It's not my job to punish my neighbor's kid, but I will stop him from playing in traffic. But I will have to think more on this -- it seems as though you read John 20 as more of a you are either forgiving or retaining with what you do, whereas I tend to understand it more as should you forgive they are, should you retain they are -- and having silence be an option. Still, I will think more. <br /><br />3. Just as a general question - is there a discussion somewhere on the practice of omitting the preparatory service in Advent and Lent. That is a custom I am by no means familiar with.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-4051982784049652722010-10-25T13:59:21.237-05:002010-10-25T13:59:21.237-05:00Fr. Brown,
My disagreements with Dr. Luther's...Fr. Brown,<br /><br />My disagreements with Dr. Luther's outlook on absolution and the ministry (especially as included in his Quasimodo Geniti sermons) is not a secret to readers of this blog. <br /><br />Not every word of Gospel is an absolution - at least, if our words are going to have anything approaching specific meaning. <br /><br />Second, yes, you are proclaiming to a Baptist that he has sins that need to be repented of when you won't commune him. Is telling lies about God not a sin? Don't Baptists lie about God when they say he doesn't want babies to be baptized? Shouldn't they repent of that?<br /><br />Now, it may well be that Baptists too shall be saved because they do not understand their sins to be sins - that they are sinning out of ignorance and thus venially rather than mortally. But it's a sin they need to repent of nonetheless and that is what we say to everyone we will not commune: I cannot commune you because you are not living in repentance and faith. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-5053638728129886882010-10-25T13:37:09.797-05:002010-10-25T13:37:09.797-05:00I put "regularly" although my practice i...I put "regularly" although my practice is also to omit it during Lent and Advent, not during the rest of the Church Year. Some people don't like it and complain about it. I like it because it makes the Mass shorter.Pastor Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04675820871512485953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-35603776533819504212010-10-25T12:17:08.291-05:002010-10-25T12:17:08.291-05:00One final comment. I think sometimes we over emph...One final comment. I think sometimes we over emphasize subjective justification over objective. Should I say to the Mormon, your sin is forgiven - this is objectively true. Should he reject and disbelieve, his disbelief retains it. When I say, "I retain your sin" to the impenitent - I am simply speaking what is already real because of that man's unbelief. Sometimes I wonder if we don't worry too much about Subjective, forgetting that subjective comes and flows from the Objective.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-12227050222527616512010-10-25T12:12:57.731-05:002010-10-25T12:12:57.731-05:00One other thing (I got to drive to the hospital - ...One other thing (I got to drive to the hospital - it was ponder this or ponder football, and as I am an Oklahoma grad I had no desire to do this).<br /><br />To the prof who asked, "How can you not commune everyone if you just forgave them all their sins a couple of minutes ago?" I would respond, "My not welcoming them to the altar is not because I am retaining their sin, but for their sake and safety." I think saying that denying communion = retaining sins is a logical jump. I certainly would hope that I am not retaining the sins of the infants who I bless at the rail!<br /><br />More over - if a baptist were to approach the rail and there make verbal confession of his faith, repent of his sins of denying Christ's presence in the Word (for that's what they do with Baptism, with the Supper, and with Preaching, even) and professed his desire to enter and remain in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church I would be quite inclined to commune him on the spot.<br /><br />It just might be awkward - which is why we like to have you do that publicly before hand.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.com