tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post5869116094404980551..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: To do listPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-25141477034299740062010-05-11T09:31:36.355-05:002010-05-11T09:31:36.355-05:00Dear Dr. Anderson:
Well said, sir.Dear Dr. Anderson:<br /><br />Well said, sir.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-51310946839324760552010-05-11T09:29:12.774-05:002010-05-11T09:29:12.774-05:00I don't know. Nor do I know, off hand, what th...<i>I don't know. Nor do I know, off hand, what the eighth amendment is. Or the 20th president of the USA. There are many details that an individual can't pull out--but doubtless when the Gospel is read on that day, the words will be powerful and important.</i> -- Rev. Louderback<br /><br />No doubt. That is why the innovative substitution of man's (or woman's) words, in the place of e.g., the Benediction of God Almighty, can be deemed to be as limp as an over-cooked noodle.<br /><br />"<i>My</i> Word will not return to Me void." The Promise does not extend to the innovations of the fallen brain, however stirring, creative and "funky." The atirring, creative and "funky" "Lutheran" experiments of the last 150 years, designated elsewhere as part and parcel of our "traditions" now, need to be further explained, as to their real intent and purpose ... beyond, perhaps, that of an exhilarating sense of "newness," a passing thrill which effectively informs the Church Triumphant that we mortals who yet require oxygen can do it better, and we can do it alone.<br /><br />There is nothing particularly boring about the historic liturgy, our Lutheran birth-right. It is true, however, that occasionally one has casually dismissed a birth-right, for the sake of a porridge which was perceived by the semi-starved brain as exhilarating.<br /><br />All I can say is that the exhilarating maybe needs more salt.Michael L. Anderson, M.D., Ph.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158953802996685938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-80912516464379536452010-05-11T09:13:12.897-05:002010-05-11T09:13:12.897-05:00Dr. Anderson makes a good point.
The term "c...Dr. Anderson makes a good point.<br /><br />The term "contemporary" [from Latin: "cum" + "tempus"] - as in "contemporary worship" - has been hijacked. It has come to mean "new" and "faddish" and "breaking with tradition." It carries the connotation youth culture and the generation gap, a sort of middle finger raised to the twenty centuries of the saints who from their labors rest. <br /><br />More specifically, it has connotations of the guitars of post-big-band (mostly rock and roll) popular music - a genre that now changes as quickly as the latest sync of one's iPod.<br /><br />And yet the word "contemporary" doesn't really mean any of that. <br /><br />It means more along the lines of "timelessness." There are certain types of clothing and fashion that never go out of style, and so in that sense, they are "contemporary" - as opposed to faddishly timebound expressions like Nehru jackets and powdered wigs.<br /><br />Maybe we need to reclaim the word "contemporary" for the traditional liturgical Mass as the eternal worship with angels and archangels, etc. Maybe our traditional churches should put banners up saying "contemporary worship" and show people what real contemporary worship (timeless, transcendent, and eternal) really looks, sounds, and smells like.<br /><br />I would like to see a "we have contemporary worship" banner flying in front of Zion Lutheran Church in Detroit - since the Divine Service in that congregation is truly timeless and contemporary, a copy of the heavenly worship that God Himself says is *His* preference.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-9962893802046145002010-05-11T08:50:33.787-05:002010-05-11T08:50:33.787-05:00Oh, and I do contemporary music too - everything&#...<i>Oh, and I do contemporary music too - everything's from the LSB, which was published within the past 5 years - that's pretty contemporary when you think about it.</i> -- Fr. Brown<br /><br />I have been thinking about it, and the logic is undeniably appealing when it come to the praxis of daily life and its vocations. I am contemplating applying leeches to my patients, the ones with the anemic pneumonias (the procedure will lower health care costs dramatically, I would think); and then proceed to argue to the sainted plaintiff's attorney, while I sweat profusely in the dock, that I am merely choosing to employ the very best that medicine can offer, in the present tense. <br /><br />After all, I read about it in the <i>Bulletin of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences</i>, in an article published 2 years ago.<br /><br />The <i>Sanctus</i> is, of course, as "contemporary" as eternity. Accordingly, it's future-oriented to an extreme. It's the song of the angels, in heaven. Now <i>that's</i> ... mmm... "funky." Outdated? I think not. Get with it, folks.Michael L. Anderson, M.D., Ph.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158953802996685938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-90760628913367993112010-05-09T20:16:36.661-05:002010-05-09T20:16:36.661-05:00I think the matter of genuflection all depends on ...I think the matter of genuflection all depends on how a person approaches it. Particularly if previously unfamiliar with the practice, the question is whether a sense of humility prevails among the people.<br /><br />Here at St. Paul's we don't have kneelers, but we have some very pious ladies on the altar guild who really wanted to be able to kneel. So they went ahead and *made* some kneelers, little folded-over cushions, which are placed at the ends of the pews. Pretty soon most everybody was doing it. Now the whole congregation can kneel for the Our Father, the Verba, the Benediction . . .<br /><br />Nobody forced it on them.Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-17057658405750672042010-05-06T11:01:04.893-05:002010-05-06T11:01:04.893-05:00Dear Paul:
And to make it even more fun, the acce...Dear Paul:<br /><br />And to make it even more fun, the accepted court history of Bishop Stephan may not even be true. We've never really heard both sides of the story. It's certainly not as "tidy" as the official line. The sainted Rev. Dr. Stephen Wiest has done some academic work and has given lectures on the subject - very interesting stuff.<br /><br />But the good news is that evangelical episcopal polity is actually quite common around the world - even among churches that we're in full altar and pulpit fellowship with. The myth that congregational polity and democracy are divinely ordained and inherently Lutheran is being exposed for the fraud that it is, as heroes like Bishop Obare exemplify courageous Lutheranism around the world.<br /><br />I agree with you about "the course of human events" as well as the plague of LCMS seminarians and pastors who don't give a you-know-what about our Pious Concordia, our Symbolical Books. Thanks to our polity, even professors who deny the Trinity and teach evolution can remain on the roster for years on end. Ultimately, this (trying to practice oversight [Greek: "episkope"] by democracy)is our Achilles Heel.<br /><br />The good news is that it is a two-edged sword. Our polity also prevents (or at least toughens) an anti-confessional majority from ousting a confessional minority.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-59616597136342164432010-05-06T09:43:34.605-05:002010-05-06T09:43:34.605-05:00what fun! Unfortunately, because of LCMS history ...what fun! Unfortunately, because of LCMS history with a certain bishop, the odds of returning to the confessional ideal of evangelical biships are slim to none. I carry in my coat pocket a document with one of my favorite sentences of all time, which I believe applies today: "When in the Course of Human Events, it beocme necessary for one People to dissolve the Polital Bands which have connected them with another..." if you actually converse with folks, including Seminary graduates, who don't give a *** about the Confessions, you too might despair of achieving anything approaching Concordia with them.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09350908137437557142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-11608156176125309042010-05-05T12:00:16.798-05:002010-05-05T12:00:16.798-05:00Father Hollywood,
Which, in many of our churches ...Father Hollywood,<br /><br /><b>Which, in many of our churches means bad acoustic guitar music written by Jesuits in the late 60s, or dreadful Maranatha tunes which, rumor has it, was used to torture "enemy combatants" at GTMO..</b><br /><br />Amen brother. You and I should work together to rid the church of this. We'd be working different sides of the coin, but the results would be pleasing.<br /><br />And actually, you could call me just "Mike" which would be a slick little nickname, just between us...<br /><br />Is it Lie-Ma, as in the bean, or Lee-Ma, as in the city?mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-80583583220363366952010-05-05T09:29:17.157-05:002010-05-05T09:29:17.157-05:00Beane,
You do point out perhaps the really reason...Beane,<br /><br />You do point out perhaps the really reason folks rebel against ceremony. A quarterback kneels to kill the clock. That is good - it shortens the game. Genuflection in the Church is different. A Pastor is never supposed to do anything that in any way, shape, or form lengthens the time of service.<br /><br />Oh, and I do contemporary music too - everything's from the LSB, which was published within the past 5 years - that's pretty contemporary when you think about it.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-47429906722765971372010-05-05T09:20:42.714-05:002010-05-05T09:20:42.714-05:00"Please. We do contemporary music."
Whi..."Please. We do contemporary music."<br /><br />Which, in many of our churches means bad acoustic guitar music written by Jesuits in the late 60s, or dreadful Maranatha tunes which, rumor has it, was used to torture "enemy combatants" at GTMO...Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-23636179845463729342010-05-05T09:14:42.779-05:002010-05-05T09:14:42.779-05:00"You don't pronounce Mqll--just as it is ..."You don't pronounce Mqll--just as it is with BOC. Or LCMS. You say the letters in turn. Em. Que. El. El."<br /><br />Got it!<br /><br />Or we could just call you: "Mike Quebec Lima Lima" - which would be your international radio name. :-)Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-40566747577601761602010-05-05T09:11:06.459-05:002010-05-05T09:11:06.459-05:00Father Hollywood,
And Mark, please don't tell...Father Hollywood,<br /><br /><b>And Mark, please don't tell me this is your congregation's opening hymn this Sunday...</b><br /><br />Please. We do <i>contemporary</i> music.mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-48014658997762075772010-05-05T09:09:14.851-05:002010-05-05T09:09:14.851-05:00Heath,
I believe my people will actually learn mo...Heath,<br /><br /><b>I believe my people will actually learn more of the Word of God by knowing a given set of pericopes very well due to repetition rather than a greater number of pericopes with less repetition of each.</b><br /><br />And why is this? Just the less is more thing? <br /><br />I guess when I went to Sem, one of the things that I learned that I carry with me is the amazing individuality of the Gospels. Yes, they are all speaking about the life of Christ, but each one does so in a manner that is distinct and separate from the rest. I like the fact that the 3 year cycle allows these voices to speak.<br /><br /><b> Now quick - what's the Gospel lesson for Pentecost 19 in year B?</b><br /><br />I don't know. Nor do I know, off hand, what the eighth amendment is. Or the 20th president of the USA. There are many details that an individual can't pull out--but doubtless when the Gospel is read on that day, the words will be powerful and important.<br /><br />Anyway, I appreciate the answer and it makes sense. Have fun storming the castle. ;)mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-72295636686568209502010-05-05T09:09:03.048-05:002010-05-05T09:09:03.048-05:00"...in American culture, we don't kneel....."...in American culture, we don't kneel..."<br /><br />This is most certainly true! Humility is not our strong suit as Americans, to be sure. All the more reason to begin teaching it using ceremonies. The pastor should set the example.<br /><br />The knee-jerk aversion to bending the knee is a symptom, and not of anything good.<br /><br />Part of the reason I ended up going to seminary was the shocking eucharistic lack-of-piety practiced by many of our pastors and congregations around the country that I observed while still a scandalized layman (before I became a scandalized pastor).<br /><br />By behaving like Protestants, I'm afraid generations of pastors have taught their congregations not to *really* believe what we say about the Real Presence. There is a dissonance between catechism and practicum. Genuflecting and other ceremonies bridge that gap. <br /><br />Isn't it funny how nobody has a problem with a quarterback "taking a knee" to run out the clock on the 50 yard line? No-one is shocked or scandalized. But when the pastor does it before the resurrected Lord at the High Altar, all of the sudden, it's a controversy.<br /><br />It speaks volumes, doesn't it?<br /><br />And that football analogy makes me want to sing: "Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Goal Posts of Life." And Mark, please don't tell me this is your congregation's opening hymn this Sunday...Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-62685962014671221562010-05-05T09:03:02.299-05:002010-05-05T09:03:02.299-05:00Father Hollywood,
I have no idea who you are.
Ah...Father Hollywood,<br /><br /><b>I have no idea who you are.</b><br /><br />Ah! Yes--and I too often ask myself the same question--who am I? What does it mean to have individuality and consciousness...am I defined by who I see myself as or by what others see me doing...<br /><br /><b>But I know you need to being some cash to Vanna pronto, because I have no idea how to pronounce "Mqll."</b><br /><br />You don't pronounce Mqll--just as it is with BOC. Or LCMS. You say the letters in turn. Em. Que. El. El.<br /><br />But it is Mark Quinton Lindsey Louderback, in case you wonder. Quinton McPherson was mom's dad. Grandma Lindsey was dad's grandma. "Mark" is random. <br /><br />But still...you still really don't know who I am...mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-6663101623565995642010-05-05T08:13:47.250-05:002010-05-05T08:13:47.250-05:00Father BFE -
(sarcasm mode on) Of course I'd ...Father BFE -<br /><br />(sarcasm mode on) Of course I'd stand before Him - I'd shake His hand, slap Him on the back - He's my bud!(/sarcasm)<br /><br />My thoughts are that in some places we must take care with the (re)introduction of ritual and reverence. In many places it has fallen away, and unless the ideas of ritual and reference are introduced first, the ritual may be rejected in a knee-jerk fashion. I think reintroducing the bow makes a lot of sense for a lot of places -- in American culture, we don't kneel, but we still understand the bow. . . even if the nod of the head is more common.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-43187969556653115942010-05-05T01:16:57.672-05:002010-05-05T01:16:57.672-05:00I would humbly suggest the following:
- An increa...I would humbly suggest the following:<br /><br />- An increase in the emphasis and/or encouragement, education, and, in some cases, a re-introduction, of private confession and absolution.<br /><br />- The actual teaching of the how to and the importance of a daily prayer life. Laity, seminarians, and pastors included. Do not get me wrong, there are many fine prayer books out there. (As I type this, there are five different books within my reach.) Books are nice, but fairly worthless if no one is there to teach a person how to correctly use one of them.<br /><br />- Actually having the office of deacon would be an improvement.The Exiledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05779493683587938683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-1124843457060096622010-05-04T22:06:10.323-05:002010-05-04T22:06:10.323-05:00Fr. Reeder,
Indeed, Piepkorn mentions the "d...Fr. Reeder,<br /><br />Indeed, Piepkorn mentions the "deep bow" as an alternative to the genuflection. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-66532712401785937802010-05-04T21:42:39.334-05:002010-05-04T21:42:39.334-05:00Dear Brethren:
Should one who has physical diffic...Dear Brethren:<br /><br />Should one who has physical difficulty kneeling replace the action with a bow? I ask this in all seriousness, as this is my current plight. I would like eventually to genuflect at the consecration, but may not be able.Rev Keith Reederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04622328539304859297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-56194341337021658982010-05-04T21:18:37.291-05:002010-05-04T21:18:37.291-05:00Indeed. I want to be like Dr. Stephenson when (if...Indeed. I want to be like Dr. Stephenson when (if?) I grow up. They just don't make them like that any more.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-52585156511820973242010-05-04T21:05:29.346-05:002010-05-04T21:05:29.346-05:00This discussion always tends to generate debate wh...This discussion always tends to generate debate when it moves toward toward real physical ways to confess the real presence.<br /><br />As for me, I think Dr. Stephenson's comment on the matter of genuflection is still the best: "You would <i>stand</i> before the Incarnate One?"Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-77148845271898386212010-05-04T20:59:55.532-05:002010-05-04T20:59:55.532-05:00Dear Larry,
Kneeling is fine. I think it is an e...Dear Larry,<br /><br />Kneeling is fine. I think it is an excellent practice. However, most of my comments were from the assumption (apparently misguided) that it be mandated. . . a "shall" rather than a "may". In practical terms of trying to insure "peace in the church, reverence in worship, and common confession" having that be a "shall" would be counter productive. That was the extent of my point.<br /><br />Yes, we have 2000 years of history. I think much of the task of our generation (and probably the next) will be reincorporating our congregations into that tradition. However, we also have the last 150 years of "tradition" as well, and those years and the problems they present need to be reckoned with as well - and in different places that will take more time, and the introduction of specific ceremonies could be unduly disruptive.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-74751535901266678232010-05-04T20:29:17.023-05:002010-05-04T20:29:17.023-05:00Dear Eric:
You write:
"While genuflection ...Dear Eric:<br /><br />You write: <br /><br />"While genuflection would sort of teach against receptionism, it will seem really foreign in a lot of congregations, especially ones like mine where there is no history of kneeling anywhere associated with the Supper (no rail, even)."<br /><br />There are a lot of things that would have "seemed foreign" in Lutheranism not that long ago (and still are in some places): the pastor wearing an alb (or even a clerical collar), the pastor and the people making the sign of the cross, the crucifix, chanting, private confession, every Sunday communion, etc.<br /><br />In other words: Lutheranism, as confessed by Lutheran practice, has become foreign in Lutheran churches.<br /><br />It's our job to teach, not to avoid being Lutheran because it has become "foreign." Shame on our forbears who, ever so eager to conform (see 1 Sam 8:4), traded our catholic sacramental heritage for Protestant Reformed/Anabaptist practices that are at odds with what we claim to believe on paper.<br /><br />Piepkorn wrote that when he studied for the Holy Ministry, men were not even required to read the Book of Concord! We're still recovering from such anti-confessionalism - even in the LCMS today. I have actually heard pastors brag that their books of Concord have not been opened since seminary graduation. It's a scandal, and our people are suffering spiritually for it.<br /><br />Not kneeling before the Holy Sacrament is what the Reformed and Baptists do as a fitting confession of what they believe is on the altar. Imitating their practice teaches the people that same theology. Actions do indeed speak louder than words, "lex orandi" and all that...<br /><br />And kneeling is indeed part of our heritage. Our heritage is not limited to 20th century America, nor even 500 years of Lutheranism. Luther was scandalized by even the thought of someone not genuflecting during "and was made man" in the creed. This isn't some crazy alien practice. It is simple western liturgical Christianity.<br /><br />Obviously, pastoral sensitivity and care must be taken in ceremonial. But at the same time, our people are so surrounded by Protestant theology and practice that we really have an obligation to use every means we have to teach the faith - which the AC (24:3) considers the chief reason for ceremonies. <br /><br />Any and every attempt to suggest a unified front in our collective teaching through ceremony inevitably breaks down based on an appeal to adiaphora, Christian liberty, and diversity. And sadly, those who will not bend the knee only serve to make it more difficult for us who are trying to teach using this simple ceremonial that is allowed to become a "division."<br /><br />Refusing to kneel before Jesus has become a virtue to be defended, and the suggestion that our pastors voluntarily doing this across the board would reverently confess the Real Presence of our blessed Lord is met with resistance. <br /><br />I really don't get it. <br /><br />But you are certainly free to do whatever you want at the altar. But I don't accept the notion that genuflecting and not genuflecting are equal. One confesses by its action against what the other, by its absence, may be inferred. Kneeling leaves no doubt what one confesses on the altar. <br /><br />Kneeling may be awkward and embarrassing, but we should confess with St. Paul in Romans 1:16.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-77104221555995015692010-05-04T19:49:24.383-05:002010-05-04T19:49:24.383-05:00Fr. Curtis,
Ah - you didn't have the genuflec...Fr. Curtis,<br /><br />Ah - you didn't have the genuflection listed as a suggestion - there is the list of what that will include - and then genuflection. Hence I read that as a "shall" rather than a "may".<br /><br />Low Church Reverent -- hmmm, as I used the phrase I should be able to quickly define it. You make a good point about appropriating an Anglican term -- let me coin a different one. How about "Simple Reverent" - a service that tends to follow the simpler rubric. Now, a lot of this is influenced by where I am at and that I don't have access to assistants often (although I did make Jay be a Gospel bearer for a procession the previous two Easters. . . and I'll probably do so next year when he's not on vicarage). <br /><br />Of course - I'd also say if you want to combat receptionism preach on the power of the Word of God and our own person inability to manipulate God by our own piety. =o)Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-33350348633515150142010-05-04T17:52:31.750-05:002010-05-04T17:52:31.750-05:00Fr. Brown,
What's too specific in the rubrics...Fr. Brown,<br /><br />What's too specific in the rubrics? A *suggestion* that genuflecting is helpful in combating receptionism?<br /><br />I think you're seeking a conflict with someone who has not shown up at the conflict. <br /><br />High church and low church are Anglican terms and I don't think they translate well into Lutheranism. I mean - do you wear a Geneva gown and only have low mass with no organ? What does "low church reverent" mean?<br /><br />Just be reverent. Follow an approved Divine Service from the jurisdiction you are under. And if you want my advice on how to combat receptionism and teach the people against it: genuflect. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.com