tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post5867361463708942882..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: The Heart of the MatterPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-52120972300188051282009-11-09T16:09:07.278-06:002009-11-09T16:09:07.278-06:00Pr. Stuckwisch, in reply to your previous remark, ...Pr. Stuckwisch, in reply to your previous remark, from which I here "proof-text" your words, so to speak...<br /><br />>>>what I am wondering here is whether those who engage in "church growth" "contemporary (sic) worship" practices would be doing what they are doing, in the way they are doing it, if they were cognizant and convinced of the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar<<<<br /><br />...to which I will add the perhaps inappropriate degree of skepticism: honestly, I'm not sure how much they care about the *bodily presence of Christ,* since "they" operate on the emotional level of "effectiveness" or "being sated in the spirit." For them, an emotional high *in their own bodies* is met, either by performing creative worship or by getting caught up in the music of the performers. This overshadows the "real presence" business. Or at least, real presence and CW can coexist side by side. People, inconsistent as they can be, have no trouble simultaneously holding two contradictory viewpoints or practices.<br /><br />Contemporary worship turns out to be more effective and successful for them than the corporeal presence of Jesus. To put it another way, the music is a more reliable means of grace when trying to "Open the Eyes of My Heart, Lord."<br /><br />They may indeed be "cognizant and convinced" of the so-called real presence; but I have to ask if, really, this for them is anything more than wordplay. Music, for them, meets a need that Jesus cannot. In any case, they can compartmentalize the presence of Christ, Who comes out perhaps only at the distribution. At other points in the service, they can pull from other compartments as they need or desire.<br /><br />I am oversimplifying. Not all proponents think like this, of course. As I said, my assessment is an inappropriate level of skepticism. But for them, in many cases, I believe the heart of the matter really is the music.The Rev. J. Rinashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12999205543793244478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-67755810924704458712009-11-09T13:45:32.471-06:002009-11-09T13:45:32.471-06:00Tim, your comments are entirely apropos and welcom...Tim, your comments are entirely apropos and welcome. It ought to cause us to pause and reflect and humility, wherever we may discover that our teaching and practice diverge from that of the church catholic. Not as though history were normative or never to be faulted; but because it was not from us that the Word of God originated, nor to us alone that it has come by His grace.<br /><br />I appreciate all of the comments that have been made, but I remain sincerely interested whether those who disagree with us would concur that we are at the heart of the matter when it comes to the "real presence" or "absence" of Christ before, during and after the distribution of the Holy Communion.<br /><br />I perceive that what drives a lot of "church growth" "contemporary (sic) worship" practices is a zeal and desire for the salvation of the lost. I admire the zeal and desire, to a point, though I fear that it is running with a false theology. But setting that argument aside for the time being, what I am wondering here is whether those who engage in "church growth" "contemporary (sic) worship" practices would be doing what they are doing, in the way they are doing it, if they were cognizant and convinced of the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar.<br /><br />I'm not presenting this to be insulting, and I'm not trying to suggest that any or all of these folks would deny the body and blood of Christ in the actual eating and drinking. I hope that no one will fine-tooth-comb by words to interpret any such insult or accusation in them. I am sincere in my question, whether receptionism may be the error that lies at the heart of those practices to which we object.<br /><br />And by the same token, perhaps those who roll their eyes and raise their eyebrows at the Gottesdienst editors will at least be able to comprehend our principles and practice, if they discern that we are conducting our bodies in reverence for the very body of Christ.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-71328312572658511892009-11-08T20:55:13.500-06:002009-11-08T20:55:13.500-06:00"My first encounter with receptionism was a r..."My first encounter with receptionism was a real crisis in my ministry and occurred early on. I was shocked - I really was - to find out that this was the historic teaching of the Missouri Synod." <br /><br />Huh- I never knew that was the official teaching of the LCMS. But beyond that (and forgive me if I'm going off board here)- the more and more I study Church History, the more and more I find receptionism to be a faulty teaching at the very least.<br /><br />Again, if I'm going off the conversation here, MOD me out.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157748079129752535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-60752667752712520272009-11-05T21:35:56.344-06:002009-11-05T21:35:56.344-06:00"Faithful preaching will always lead to the A..."Faithful preaching will always lead to the Altar; and, by the same token, the Holy Communion should never be administered apart from the preaching of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. To and from the Font, to and from the Altar, to and from vocational life in the world, always back to the Lamb upon His throne in the center of His Church."<br /><br />Rev Stuckwisch, that sounds a lot like Dr Luther's preaching to me.Matthias Flaciushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16694173538247881415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-57346149268552443282009-11-05T08:04:33.094-06:002009-11-05T08:04:33.094-06:00Pastor Stuckwisch -
The paragraph describing what...Pastor Stuckwisch - <br />The paragraph describing what "liturgical" means is really helpful. I used to use the phrase "Word and Sacrament ministry" in some District meetings, as shorthand for what we're (hopefully) striving for - as opposed to using Protestant praise services as our model. I quit using that phrase because it didn't seem to mean the same thing to all of us. Or at least some folks used the same phrase and seemed to have a different picture in their mind. The best way I can describe it is that "Word and Sacrament ministry" seemed to mean "we believe in Holy Communion". Which made me feel stuck - it's like the difference between agreeing with a definition and living a life.organistsandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16127502429931791166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-83688893571513546212009-11-02T20:28:01.124-06:002009-11-02T20:28:01.124-06:00"...to make a strict chronological time-seque..."...to make a strict chronological time-sequence out of these things doesn't seem right to me. To say 'The preaching of the Word has stopped, and now we are going to stop considering the word and start thinking about the Sacrament' is to miss the point..."<br /><br />For the sake of clarification, I should certainly say that I didn't intend any such things as this. I don't think you were offering your comments as a matter of disagreement, but I did want to clarify the point. I absolutely affirm that each of these things, of which I have written above, do have an organic connection and interrelatedness to each other. I'm not inclined to speak of concentric circles, necessarily, because each of these means of grace has its own propria and purpose in the life of the Church. They center in the Sacrament of the Altar, as has been said; but I still wish to suggest that the heart and center is not "everything," even if it does give us everything in Christ.<br /><br />Faithful preaching will always lead to the Altar; and, by the same token, the Holy Communion should never be administered apart from the preaching of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. To and from the Font, to and from the Altar, to and from vocational life in the world, always back to the Lamb upon His throne in the center of His Church.<br /><br />Thanks for the tip, Pastor Rinas.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-79923575056508015922009-11-02T17:48:03.374-06:002009-11-02T17:48:03.374-06:00Here on the outer rim of Lutheranism, the "pe...Here on the outer rim of Lutheranism, the "personal conversations" of which Fr. Stuckwisch writes more often take literary form. So having read it this morning I commend Stephenson's review essay, if you haven't already seen it, in the LOGIA Holy Trinity issue, regarding Usus and Actio.The Rev. J. Rinashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12999205543793244478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-15678093791911061362009-11-02T17:42:31.268-06:002009-11-02T17:42:31.268-06:00"But the same Lord Jesus Christ is also among..."But the same Lord Jesus Christ is also among us in the preaching of His Word, in the forgiving of sins in His Name, as in the waters of Holy Baptism, and in the lives of His faithful. For He is exceedingly rich in His grace and mercy toward us."<br /><br />I like to think of all these different elements of the life of the Church as superimposed layers or concentric spheres like layers of an onion. There is an interrelationship, a directedness out from the Lordship of Christ, and even a causal relationship between these things, but to make a strict chronological time-sequence out of these things doesn't seem right to me. To say "The preaching of the Word has stopped, and now we are going to stop considering the word and start thinking about the Sacrament" is to miss the point; a naive and rigid application of the Liturgy of the Word / Liturgy of the Sacrament distinction can tend in this direction to the point that the two rites aren't understood as a unity, and the Word and the Sacrament end up divorced from one another. All of these things are unified in Christ.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09360602965070109675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-42856447888378072042009-11-02T17:12:10.149-06:002009-11-02T17:12:10.149-06:00Pastor Petersen, thanks for your comments. I conc...Pastor Petersen, thanks for your comments. I concur with almost everything you have said, but I don't believe that we should take the position that "the Sacrament of the Altar is everything." I suspect that I would agree with your premise in making this statement, but it strikes me as an overstatement; or, at least, as a misleading way of putting things.<br /><br />I would still prefer to speak of the Sacrament of the Altar as the heart and center of the Church and her life in Christ; perhaps as the source and summit of her life and health and every blessing. The preaching of the Word is primary and ongoing, even as He continues to become flesh and dwell among us. And the Sacrament of Holy Baptism is pivotal and foundational to the Christian faith and life, even as it clothes the faithful with the wedding garments in which they eat and drink the Feast. Also, the Christian who is always living toward the Altar, is likewise living from the Altar into his proper vocations and stations in the world.<br /><br />So, again, I would suggest that everything pertains and relates to the Sacrament of the Altar, which stands as the central height among us; but I am reluctant to say that the Sacrament of the Altar is everything.<br /><br />Of course, the Sacrament of the Altar is Christ among us in His very flesh and blood; and there is no doubt that Christ our Lord is everything, and all in all. But the same Lord Jesus Christ is also among us in the preaching of His Word, in the forgiving of sins in His Name, as in the waters of Holy Baptism, and in the lives of His faithful. For He is exceedingly rich in His grace and mercy toward us. And while He is all in all, it is also the case that one can speak of Christ as the Head of His Body, the Church; in which there is both the most intimate relationship and yet the distinction between the Bridegroom and His beloved Bride. Perhaps a similar connection and distinction can be maintained in speaking of the Sacrament of the Altar and the Church?Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-30234604130138850702009-11-02T16:58:47.375-06:002009-11-02T16:58:47.375-06:00Well, the adjective "liturgical" can be ...Well, the adjective "liturgical" can be used in a wide variety of ways, and of course there are always exceptions on both sides of the question, but, such caveats notwithstanding, the answer is:<br /><br />Yes<br /><br />The WELS and ELS do tend to be less liturgical than the LCMS.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-61113330005103042992009-11-02T15:54:28.082-06:002009-11-02T15:54:28.082-06:00May I ask a question? "Receptionism" no...May I ask a question? "Receptionism" not only was, but still is, the "dogmatic" teaching of both the WELS and the ELS (such that in the past the WELS has broken fellowship with groups, e.g., the Swedish group headed by the late Tom Hardt, that have embraced "consecrationism." And yet, are the WELS and the ELS any less liturgical than the Missouri Synod?William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-62232416818520378352009-11-02T10:18:44.102-06:002009-11-02T10:18:44.102-06:00My first encounter with receptionism was a real cr...My first encounter with receptionism was a real crisis in my ministry and occurred early on. I was shocked - I really was - to find out that this was the historic teaching of the Missouri Synod. <br /><br />That cured me of any vainglorious pretentions about Missouri: she's never been a monolith of orthodoxy for from the beginning something has been deeply wrong here at the center. <br /><br />But that also raises another question: why was Missouri so firm on sticking to the liturgy in the decades where receptionism was the absolute norm? I think here she was saved from herself by the liturgy - that is, there is such thing as a good habit. But habits and constitutional dicta about "pure agenda" fall apart without the theological backing.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-31231311021595546962009-11-02T06:37:46.004-06:002009-11-02T06:37:46.004-06:00Dr. Eckardt seems to have been on to it for a whil...Dr. Eckardt seems to have been on to it for a while. I am not sure of the others. But I agree with you and for my part, this has been a growing understanding sparked in no small part by my work with Gottesdienst (work which includes long conversations with the Gottesdienst Crowd). The more I celebrate and recieve the Holy Communion, the more I love it, need it, and see how central it is. In some sense the Sacrament makes me weaker. I used to hate to go for more than few days without it, now I hunger for it daily, and so do many of those I serve. I am creeping up to the point where I am almost ready to say, "For us the Sacrament of the Altar is everything."Petersenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12953264105046882429noreply@blogger.com