tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post1293119196336833578..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: Civic EventPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-77855647897142485852009-05-26T10:22:08.749-05:002009-05-26T10:22:08.749-05:00Paul,
Thanks for those thoughts - what I was assu...Paul,<br /><br />Thanks for those thoughts - what I was assuming was that you have never had a conversation with a vet who believes that the war he fought in was illegal and unjust - not one he didn't merely "disagree" with, but that he though was illegal and immoral. That makes the issue of "honorable service" in his mind much more difficult. It also makes it a political judgment. <br /><br />If a man, for example, believes that the Vietname War was illegal, unconstitutional, and unjust - well, that's a political judgment. It's not my job to argue him out of that.<br /><br />How to approach that sort of parishioner, that cross, that hurt is what I was speaking of. <br /><br />You're right that I assumed, based on your earlier comments, that you had never had that sort of conversation and dealt with that sort of individual. But I should have been more clear about what I was talking about and should not have assumed. If you have had talks with that sort of veteran, I'd appreciate any pointers on how to deal with it pastorally.<br /><br />Thanks again,<br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-45761914033596544132009-05-24T13:04:48.597-05:002009-05-24T13:04:48.597-05:00Heath, your assumption that I have not had a "long...Heath, your assumption that I have not had a "long heart to heart" with men who have fought in wars with which they do not agree is incorrect. We talked through the two kingdoms, the concept of vocation, etc. You'll find, I think, that any long heart-to-heart with any man who has killed other men is never easy, or open/shut and black/white. It was one of the myths of the Vietnam War that only those vets suffered from horrible post-traumatic stress syndrome.<br /><br />Their service as soldier, even in a war they do not agree with, is an honorable exercise of the vocation of soldier.<br /><br />And since the point of Memorial Day is to honor those men who died in service to their country, I believe this can be done in such a way as to avoid a political statement, one way or the other.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-7882316477330967802009-05-24T05:39:04.548-05:002009-05-24T05:39:04.548-05:00Luke,
Thanks a million! That's a great resource.
...Luke,<br /><br />Thanks a million! That's a great resource.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-31967402504382001672009-05-23T21:40:45.002-05:002009-05-23T21:40:45.002-05:00Heath:
Like you, I have had the opportunity to sp...Heath:<br /><br />Like you, I have had the opportunity to speak and pray at civic gatherings on Memorial Day. I did so 3 out of the 4 years I was serving parishes in West Central Iowa.<br /><br />When asked to prepare prayers/service orders, I looked at the British Remembrance Day orders (the equivalent to Memorial Day, but commemorated on November 11). You can go to this address and find information: www.ctbi.org.uk/remembrance.<br /><br />The responsive prayer (with the "May God give peace repsonse") as well as the opening introduction and the prayer that begins "Ever-living God we remember those..." seem to capture much of the thought that you expressed in your post.<br /><br />It is hard to balance everything at the Memorial Day service, especially if the order designed by the American Legion is used. The phrase "true Americanism" always struck me badly.<br /><br />Hope that the above site can help you in your preparations.<br /><br />LTZ+Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04565327604253256429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-79114553236015109022009-05-23T21:07:12.920-05:002009-05-23T21:07:12.920-05:00None taken, Jason. Thanks for the post.
+HRCNone taken, Jason. Thanks for the post. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-69318595353013537082009-05-23T20:19:05.749-05:002009-05-23T20:19:05.749-05:00I meant no disrespect by my comment, and in no way...I meant no disrespect by my comment, and in no way intended it to be a dismissal of your angst. Lacking any better insight, I will simply pray for you also.<br /><br />BraatenJasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13371984281738098119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-73635846768392365272009-05-23T20:09:29.307-05:002009-05-23T20:09:29.307-05:00I guess if you haven't had a long heart to heart w...I guess if you haven't had a long heart to heart with a parishioner who feels this way, it might be hard to see the political aspect to clergy involvement at government ceremonies. But these fellows are haunted by questions like, "Was it honorable for me to serve in a war I now see was unjust?" or "How can we all keep waving the flag and heeping honor, instead of tears and anger, on deaths that came through no just cause?"<br /><br />For many veterans of the past 40 years, I get the feeling that it is more complicated than "having served faithfully." That statement itself raises a question about what it means to serve faithfully if you think your nation is unjustly participating in armed conflict. <br /><br />Then at every civic event they see people line up, clergy included, to condone the official government version, which is, of course, always that the United States was never wrong, has nothing to apologize for, and is certainly never unjust. That is deeply painful for them. They feel they were lied into unjust combat, lost friends, years of their lives, limbs, etc. and that now everybody gets together at every patriotic holidy and ignores the questions they feel most deeply.<br /><br />Well, not having served myself under those or any other circumstance, I don't share their burden. But one conversation like this is enough to change your perspective and start to think very carefully about war, governments, veterans, the Church, and clergy.<br /><br />But thanks for your thoughts. I'll keep pondering all this before Monday at 10:00am and pray that the Lord will, as always, make up the deficiencies in my service.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-23651327272872051692009-05-23T20:03:23.909-05:002009-05-23T20:03:23.909-05:00I empathize with your struggles here, but a petiti...I empathize with your struggles here, but a petition of thanksgiving to God for those men who have faught and died in service to keep their country and fellow men free from oppression seems also appropriate and not overly political. Perhaps a caveat for our nation is giving thanks for those who have died in military service to uphold the Constitution which allows freedom to preach the Gospel for life and salvation by the forgiveness of sins. <br /><br />BraatenJasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13371984281738098119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-15868862356465814192009-05-23T19:25:31.959-05:002009-05-23T19:25:31.959-05:00I completely respect the difficulty of the assignm...I completely respect the difficulty of the assignment. I would simply thank God for all who have served faithfully in the honorable vocation of soldier. <br /><br />Seems by doing that you are not making a political statement, one way or the other. I don't see how saying that is making a political judgment.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-6373028529074975602009-05-23T16:59:23.566-05:002009-05-23T16:59:23.566-05:00Thanks for the advice. I will try to find a collec...Thanks for the advice. I will try to find a collect that expresses appropriate thanks in appropriate words. <br /><br />While your comment seems to me to be a little sarcastic, I was very earnest in my request for suggestions. I find this a difficult assignment. <br /><br />Let me tell you why. I don't only serve men who are proud of their service. I have serve men who mourn it - for I also serve veterans who view some of America's recent wars as unmitigated tragedies - indeed, as unjustified. These veterans view the loss of their friends in war in a different light, perhaps, than you do. <br /><br />How shall I minister to their sorrow without seeming to be part of an attempt to argue them out of their political views? How shall I give the honor and thanks due to God for honorable service and have that not have it sound, to their ears, like "Thanks God for snuffing out all these young lives for the whims of politicians." <br /><br />It's not my job to make political judgments when I'm in the collar. How can I speak and pray in such a manner than I don't make those judgments? What are the right sentiments and prayers?<br /><br />I'm honestly struggling - and appreciate any help, even if offered flippantly.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-74504527152349285432009-05-23T16:23:03.798-05:002009-05-23T16:23:03.798-05:00Gosh, Heath, you might want to add just a brief no...Gosh, Heath, you might want to add just a brief note of thanks to God for those who have served faithfully in the honorable vocation of soldier, and particular thanks for those who gave up their lives to defend our nation. You know, being Memorial Day, and all.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.com