tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post8755157818237578461..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: Real WorshipPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger137125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-47598696895730874342013-04-05T14:54:29.885-05:002013-04-05T14:54:29.885-05:00My Dearest Fellow Christians.
I would first like ...My Dearest Fellow Christians.<br /><br />I would first like to say as an Anglo-Catholic, High Church liturgy when done well, can draw one into a beautiful and wonderful experience of God through worship. As an Evangelical/Charismatic, Contemporary worship, when done well is able to do just the same. <br />It saddens me how members of both sides are unable to see the value in each. 1Cor. 12:21 "The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” We are all different; Eph. 4:11-12 "The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ" Whether Roman, Orthodox, or Protestant, We are all members of one body. Just because prefer different styles of worship, does not make the other styles invalid. Sure, Contemporary worship can take the form of a "show" when not done well, but High Church Mass can do the same. Both can become idols and the worship itself can be worshiped. <br />This is an age old fight from the beginnings of the Church, when the East and West argued about who's liturgy was best. Isn't it time to set this aside, acknowledge one another and our differing worship styles as being valid, and come together under one banner to be the hands and feet of our risen Lord?<br /><br />Peace be with you all,<br /><br />Kenn<br /><br />Candidate For Holy Orders 2014<br />Virginia Theological Seminary Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-44523185152663666412013-02-11T10:40:54.423-06:002013-02-11T10:40:54.423-06:00The Divine Liturgy is a tradition handed from ...The Divine Liturgy is a tradition handed from God? Does it have the same authority as the Epistle to the Romans? Is the BOC equally inspired? The Athanasian Creed condemns when the Bible does not. It's a good thing we had the inerrant early church councils to interpret the Bible for us.Dan923https://www.blogger.com/profile/17664133345286768043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-61608223610919821342013-02-11T10:06:31.165-06:002013-02-11T10:06:31.165-06:00You can continue your Romish worship service ...You can continue your Romish worship service and pretend it's from God. I'll rejoice in the freedom that's in Christ. Beware of the leaven of Rome.Dan923https://www.blogger.com/profile/17664133345286768043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-67854087615493543322013-02-11T09:52:57.522-06:002013-02-11T09:52:57.522-06:00Not as meaningful to you as Ave Maria?Not as meaningful to you as Ave Maria?Dan923https://www.blogger.com/profile/17664133345286768043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-54037274604000039832011-03-26T11:19:06.253-05:002011-03-26T11:19:06.253-05:00Thanks Fr.Beane!!! Great article.Thanks Fr.Beane!!! Great article.Tonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311118897158086894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-85857214402820558082011-03-07T16:49:48.573-06:002011-03-07T16:49:48.573-06:00Dear Ethan,
The article's author serves a con...Dear Ethan,<br /><br />The article's author serves a congregation in the New Orleans area and was smack in the middle of the madness during Hurricane Katrina.<br /><br />I think that, during disasters and calamities, that the continuity of the Liturgy is of especial comfort. While homeward bound after Katrina, my family and I attended Mass in Baton Rouge. Most members of my band of refugees had suffered emotional breakdowns along the way. It was during that Mass, specifically during the second stanza of "A Mighty Fortress" that I had mine. That Mass certainly did way more for me than a bunch of witty anecdotes or movie clips ever could have. That Mass, at a time when we were coming to terms with the fact that we might have nothing left, reminded me that in Christ, I have everything.Mike Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06508323155548373700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-40759734375262581702011-03-07T13:01:26.299-06:002011-03-07T13:01:26.299-06:00Great photo, and a good post to accompany it. Stil...Great photo, and a good post to accompany it. Still...<br /><br />The argument in the post is that liturgy demonstrates the continuation of sacred life through devastation and calamity. Fair enough. And it also argues that the reason American evangelical worship has been able to atrophy into entertainment is because we have not suffered such calamities in this country. That seems like a pretty good argument to me. I'd certainly like it to be true.<br /><br />But what about those who *do* suffer calamities in this country? What about the impoverished, living in rural squalor or urban blight? What about those living in real disaster zones - certainly not nationwide, but bad enough in their local places, like New Orleans? What sort of worship do those people seek out? I can imagine it probably isn't suburban amplified worship music, but is it really high church liturgy? I'd like to think that my preferred form of church culture, emphasizing tradition, continuity, and stability, would be able to give them what they need most, but does it really?<br /><br />I expect that it would be possible to find out the facts of the matter.Ethan C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08658234155418733181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-16370062811222045212011-02-16T15:21:51.530-06:002011-02-16T15:21:51.530-06:00Dear Mark:
Given that today is the feast of Bless...Dear Mark:<br /><br />Given that today is the feast of Blessed Philipp Melanchthon, I'll pray the collect from the Treasury (p. 1214), followed by a quote from the good doctor:<br /><br />"Almighty God, we praise You for the service of Philipp Melanchthon to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church in the renewal of its life in fidelity to Your Word and promise. Raise up in these gray and latter days faithful teachers and pastors, inspired by Your Spirit, whose voices will give strength to Your Church and proclaim the ongoing reality of Your Kingdom; through Your Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord."<br /><br />Bl. Philipp gets the last word, as he taught us to confess:<br /><br />"In our churches Mass is celebrated every Sunday and on other festivals when the sacrament is offered to those who wish for it after they have been examined and absolved. We keep traditional liturgical forms, such as the order of the lessons, prayers, vestments, etc." <br />~ Apology 24:1<br /><br />Amen.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-1981709290460872852011-02-16T12:31:49.334-06:002011-02-16T12:31:49.334-06:00Larry,
I appreciate your conversation and your ef...Larry,<br /><br />I appreciate your conversation and your efforts. I hope that you continue to be a good Lutheran pastor wherever you are.<br /><br />Remember my promise that on your deathbed, I'll be glad to wear whatever you want to commune you.<br /><br />In the meantime, me and all the other "exceptions" will just keep "entertaining" with Word and Sacrament ministry in a way that will not meet your standards. <br /><br />Whether it meets God's standards or not...well, one day we'll know.<br /><br />God's blessings. Last word is yours.mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-24557038662033817402011-02-16T12:25:49.524-06:002011-02-16T12:25:49.524-06:00So, we come to the end of the words here on worshi...So, we come to the end of the words here on worship and I'll just sum up my thinking:<br /><br />1. What does it mean to be a Lutheran? For me it means to hold to the teachings of Scripture, to the very words of God, to the salvation that Christ has won for me and for all. This is why what we do is Word and Sacrament ministry.<br /><br />I reject that being a Lutheran also means holding to certain traditions of men. There is nothing wrong with being ordered and the like and following rules—but these are not indispensable to being Lutheran.<br /><br />2. Reverence is not the highest form of worship. Too much emphasis is placed on being "reverent" as if that all that God would ask for. This is is mere opinion and personal taste masquerading as pious behavior. <br /><br />3. Worship is a continuum and not a binary. Obviously, whether you are worshiping the true God or not is binary--you are or you are not. But outside of that, worship varies. Some is good and some is bad. Some Western liturgy is poorly done, poorly executed and not good.<br /><br />This does not make all western liturgy bad. The reverse however seems to be taken for granted: bad CoWo makes all CoWo bad. This is equally ridiculous. <br /><br />What is sad is the lack of recognition of this fact on the site.<br /><br />4. If the Confessions outlaw CoWo, then why has no one mentioned this in a Journal article (FtW or CSL)? I mean, you figure somewhere the factoid would come out.<br /><br />That fact that it has not put an ax to anyone holding that the position is "obvious". <br /><br />5. The reason people do CoWo is because they want to bring the Gospel to all of God's children. They joy that you receive in someone coming into a church and hearing the Word and being changed is wonderful. There is nothing like it.<br /><br />That's all. Thanks for the conversation guys & gals. I'm sure we'll chat about the exact same things some other time.mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-46402087437235501782011-02-16T12:22:08.533-06:002011-02-16T12:22:08.533-06:00Dear Mark:
I think this is the crux of the proble...Dear Mark:<br /><br />I think this is the crux of the problem: the holy body and blood of Christ are holy. They are not to be treated as something "fun" or "to be liked." It is a profanation (making common) of that which is holy.<br /><br />The argument is that our culture is irreverent and me-centered, and so offering a worship "experience" that is irreverent and me-centered is somehow akin to translating the Mass from German to English.<br /><br />It is a slight-of-hand that I just don't buy. We all know that in life and death situations (which is what taking the holy sacrament is), such as deathbeds or at funerals - cracking jokes and making things entertaining cheapens (profanes) matters.<br /><br />Lack of belief ultimately reduces the eucharist to an experience of fun and games. I'm sure it is a matter of degree (some are more irreverent than others) - but I've seen some real trainwrecks in LCMS churches. <br /><br />Liturgical services are far more likely to be reverent than entertainment-based models. Exceptions (if there are any) only prove the rule.<br /><br />Which is the wisdom of our forbears inserting Article 24 into our confessional documents.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-7773380205321242552011-02-16T12:14:58.276-06:002011-02-16T12:14:58.276-06:00FH,
And this is the problem with entertainment wo...FH,<br /><br /><i>And this is the problem with entertainment worship - it is, by definition, incurvatus se. It's navel gazing for people with attention deficits.</i><br /><br />(Shrug) I guess it all depends on how you see the Gospel: what it is for and the difference that it makes.mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-19146314522651446142011-02-16T12:12:29.089-06:002011-02-16T12:12:29.089-06:00Tina,
Like it? Are you serious? I I like popcorn ...Tina,<br /><br /><i>Like it? Are you serious? I I like popcorn shrimp, french fries, blizzards and cotton candy. But is it good for me? It will keep me alive, (for a while) but I wouldn't want to live on it.</i><br /><br />Yes. But the body and blood of Christ are different, are they not?<br /><br />So what for them?mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-6828050230126358532011-02-15T22:45:19.689-06:002011-02-15T22:45:19.689-06:00That reminds me of a quip by the lady preacher wit...That reminds me of a quip by the lady preacher with the tattoos about how incongruous the word "Awesome" is to describe God. It just doesn;t seem right to describe God using the same adjective that you would a pizza.<br /><br />This does remind me of spoiled children who won't eat vegetables or do homework because they "don't like it." My sinful flesh doesn't like to repent either.<br /><br />And this is the problem with entertainment worship - it is, by definition, incurvatus se. It's navel gazing for people with attention deficits.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-44256515641538078112011-02-15T22:25:33.281-06:002011-02-15T22:25:33.281-06:00mqll,
You wrote: "My position is that there a...mqll,<br />You wrote: "My position is that there are those who grew up with TradCo and don't really like it. Don't like the repetition. Don't like the sameness. They want something different.<br /><br />What for them?"<br /><br />Like it? Are you serious? I I like popcorn shrimp, french fries, blizzards and cotton candy. But is it good for me? It will keep me alive, (for a while) but I wouldn't want to live on it.Tinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012278457882883561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-65306637474701979932011-02-15T21:42:31.249-06:002011-02-15T21:42:31.249-06:00Fr Louderback,
"So...what exactly is the nam...Fr Louderback,<br /><br />"So...what exactly is the name for someone like me?"<br /><br />A Christian, dear Father. A Christian. Like the many others we hold as Christians, even though they hold to some felicitous inconsistencies (and I know it is your opinion that it is we who are inconsistent).<br /><br />But, please understand, how can we expect others to understand how important the Liturgy is if we don't speak with zeal, even if it is a bit "muscular and edgy" at times.Mike Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06508323155548373700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-17913138304724180642011-02-15T21:21:40.393-06:002011-02-15T21:21:40.393-06:00"What for them?"
Whatever you do, don&#..."What for them?"<br /><br />Whatever you do, don't let them read or pray Psalm 136 or Hebrews 13:8. One of God's attributes is "immutability." Our modern culture's worship of "change" is not rooted in worship of the True God. It is a different kind of "lust for domination" - the kind that desires that the whole world to conform to me (in the form of my tastes) instead of what we know from Scripture that God Himself prefers. To choose the satisfaction of the self over submission to God is what the First Commandment addresses.<br /><br />The idea that worship must be "liked" is most certainly to attempt to make God submit to us, to our whims. The ultimate religion of change is Hinduism. When you get bored with Krishna you can just fire him and worship Kali. <br /><br />How boring to worship the same God all the time!Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-20257021956606726452011-02-15T21:19:36.179-06:002011-02-15T21:19:36.179-06:00So anyway, I am in search of a name.
Since I real...So anyway, I am in search of a name.<br /><br />Since I really can't be called a "Lutheran" on GDO, what then ought I to be called? I mean, what is the proper name to call a person who holds to all of the doctrines of Scripture, who believes as Christ Himself taught, but does not hold that the only way to worship is by the Western Liturgy?<br /><br />What exactly ought I call myself? What name would you kids suggest?<br /><br />The issue is that Father Holly wood and I are identical on our theology. If we were writing down what we believed, there would be no distinction.<br /><br />If we were in a Bible class, nothing would be different about the two of us. A person listening to our (computer altered) voices would see us as virtually indistinguishable.<br /><br />Even with music: at the church I only listen to the highest form of music: minimalist classical. I call my Pandora station "Gorecki". Everyone else was a warm-up getting to him. (I do listen to a fixed rock mix at the gym).<br /><br />The only way to tell us apart would be to watch us worship. Or listen to us talk about worship. That is just about it. <br /><br />You could not even tell if we spoke about the confessions, since I would say stuff like "My quia positions holds this..." and the like. The sections we differ on would seldom come up.<br /><br />So...what exactly is the name for someone like me? What exactly would you kids id me as?<br /><br />I'm curious.mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-5269051024089393002011-02-15T21:09:17.022-06:002011-02-15T21:09:17.022-06:00Tina,
The point I was trying, unsuccessfully, to ...Tina,<br /><br /><i>The point I was trying, unsuccessfully, to make is that the historic liturgy was around long before I experienced it. And if God sees fit to tarry, it will be here long after I’m gone.</i><br /><br />Well...you could have simply said that. I would have agreed. :)<br /><br /><i>The historic liturgy *was* unfamiliar to me until about 10 (or so) years ago. I grew up with EntWo, and you are right. I will never go back.</i><br /><br />I think this is a somewhat standard position. There are many who grew up with CoWo and once they were exposed to TradCo, did not want to change.<br /><br />I, of course, do not ask that. <br /><br />My position is that there are those who grew up with TradCo and don't really like it. Don't like the repetition. Don't like the sameness. They want something different.<br /><br />What for them?mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-20862949793062088902011-02-15T17:00:07.451-06:002011-02-15T17:00:07.451-06:00"Once you go trad, you can't stomach bad...."Once you go trad, you can't stomach bad." <br /><br />Groan.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-24156740624625580902011-02-15T16:31:27.749-06:002011-02-15T16:31:27.749-06:00mqll,
You said: “Did they do that because of their...mqll,<br />You said: “Did they do that because of their love for the liturgy? Because they were all about the reverence? Or because they knew that the people *would be most comfortable* and hear the Gospel in a modified liturgical situation…”<br /><br />The point I was trying, unsuccessfully, to make is that the historic liturgy was around long before I experienced it. And if God sees fit to tarry, it will be here long after I’m gone. I was using the term 'familiarity' in regard to the quotation by C.S. Lewis. <br /> <br />You said: "I am making a point about whether you are willing to wade into an unfamiliar pool."<br /><br />The historic liturgy *was* unfamiliar to me until about 10 (or so) years ago. I grew up with EntWo, and you are right. I will never go back.Tinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012278457882883561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-26851151529544348792011-02-15T12:45:13.702-06:002011-02-15T12:45:13.702-06:00Mike Green,
I am not. I see now that you referred...Mike Green,<br /><br /><i>I am not. I see now that you referred to me as such on one prior occasion. Sorry if I inadvertently implied that to be the case.</i><br /><br />Mind you, I dont think less of you or your arguments because of this, I just don't want to call you something or not call you something you should be. My own mom is a lay person and she was always one to speak and challenge.<br /><br />So when you say: <i>I'm going to bow out now, on the assumption that you only want to continue this discussion with clergy.</i> that is simply not true at all. Not true at all. If you want to bow out because there is no end in sight and I seem to be unteachable, I would understand. But don't think that just because you are not a pastor I don't want to talk about these issue. Not true at all.<br /><br /><i>If we take our heads out of...the sand, we see overwhelming internal and external evidence that the Lutheran fathers had no tolerance whatsoever for contemporary worship and that the passages in the Confession that deal with worship, although occasionally couched in descriptive language, are prescriptive for those that bind themselves to the Symbols.</i><br /><br />Well, I question this. I question, first of all the statement that they had no tolerance for contemporary worship, since they were never exposed to any. I don't think anyone thinks the actions of the radical reformers including Karlsbad had anything to do with wondering about where there people are.<br /><br />And in addition, a quia subscription is not simply a statement of "Whatever is found in the Confession, I hold to as if from God Himself." That is definitely not what I subscribed to.<br /><br />I guess if this were true, I'd expect that more people would make this argument. But the argument is not made. Why is that? Why don't we see this stated in our journals? Why does it just come on websites?<br /><br />I simply do not accept that this is what is made by confessional subscription. I'd need to be shown by some of my profs that it is.<br /><br /><i>No, but this does seem to be your position. If you think that the liturgy is Scriptural, how can you refuse to use it?</i><br /><br />Circumcision is Scriptural. <br /><br /><i>Many of their theologians try to turn Sola Scriptura on itself by contending that that premise cannot be proven from Scripture.</i><br /><br />Mmm. I just opened up my handy-dandy RC Catechism (never far from me) and I'd direct you to paragraphs 74-82 which speak about the transmission of Divine revelation. I think that you definition fits this position of Sola Scriptura fairly well.<br /><br />But look: I don't see your positive definition and explanation of how holding to traditions can be matched up with sola. I don't. Could you explain it?<br /><br /><i>God might not command or forbid Liturgical worship, but we certainly see that he approves of it. We see no such approval of contemporary worship.</i><br /><br />Actually Psalm 150 covers a lot of bases...<br /><br /><i>You seem to use "traditions of men" always in a negative sense.</i><br /><br />I don't mean to. I see it as neutral. In distinction to "from God." Lent is a tradition of man. It is a good thing. CoWo is a tradition of man. So there are plenty of traditions that are blessings.<br /><br />Shoot, I think that the liturgy is a blessing. I've never said it isn't. I just don't think it is the ONLY way to worship and still be a Lutheran.<br /><br />Isn't how our conversation got started between you and me? Am I a Lutheran?<br /><br /><i>He...strikes up the praise band for a rousing rendition of "Shine, Jesus, Shine" to thumb his nose at the Pharisees and Sadducees, right? </i><br /><br />Fortunately, like Jesus, I never have to sing Shine Jesus Shine.<br /><br /><i> I truly do hope that your ministry is as Christocentric and edifying as the Liturgy. Because, when a Synodical President insists that there is no salvation apart from the Western Liturgy, I'll be transferring my membership to your congregation.</i><br /><br />I do appreciate this. Thanks.mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-5907692927200216662011-02-15T12:23:24.928-06:002011-02-15T12:23:24.928-06:00Father Hollywood,
Karlstadt tried that whole down...Father Hollywood,<br /><br /><i>Karlstadt tried that whole down-with-the-peeps "emergent" thing when Luther was at the Wartburg. When he returned to Wittenberg, Luther told Kontemporary Karlstadt to ST*U and GT*O. The Luther movie portrayed this very well."Nothing has been received among us, in doctrine *or in ceremonies,* that is contrary to Scripture or to the church catholic." </i><br /><br />I hold to this. Nothing in CoWo is contrary to the church. The ceremonies done—baptism, communion, etc, are all what the church has always done. Proclamation of the word, reading of the word, singing, et.<br /><br />Nothing is contrary to what the church teaches.<br /><br />Diligent that no new doctrine creeps in? Absolutely.mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-64607661737072513392011-02-15T12:16:21.215-06:002011-02-15T12:16:21.215-06:00Tom Messer,
I'll just add that the fact that ...Tom Messer,<br /><br /><i>I'll just add that the fact that you continue to bring in the "like" factor to these discussions reveals that, for all your talk about being a Sola Scriptura guy, you're not basing your argument purely on Scripture.</i><br /><br />Now at least this is a real challenge!<br /><br /><i> Where, pray tell, in Holy Scripture, does God EVER take into consideration, or give the impression that we should take into consideration, what people like about worship? Where? Show me.</i><br /><br />Well, look at the evangelical actions of Paul:<br /><br />1. Paul begins evangelism in synagogues. But there in this worship, he brings Christ.<br /><br />So Paul is starting once again from a familiar style of worship and bringing Christ to that.<br /><br />2. His preaching certainly changes depending upon the audience. His language and content differ quite radically from Athens to Jerusalem. Not that it is a different Gospel; it is the same Gospel--but still, he changes it on behalf of the hearers.<br /><br />3. Look at his words on speaking in tongues in 1 Cor. What is the whole point with that? Worship needs to be understood. I'd rather speak five intelligible words. This too is the point of Cowo--taking out the jargon filled aspect of the church and shifting it to plain english.<br /><br />Is this enough? You want more?mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-43041665209611205102011-02-15T11:48:38.951-06:002011-02-15T11:48:38.951-06:00Tom Messer,
You continue to want your cake and ea...Tom Messer,<br /><br /><i>You continue to want your cake and eat it, too. You want to be Lutheran in doctrine, but not in practice. </i><br /><br />This is where I feel as though you are "muscling" me. You start out with this statement. But there is not fact backing it up. Have we agreed already that what I am doing is not Lutheran in practice? I certainly don't think so. I think that doing CoWo—bringing the Gospel message to people in a contextual way—is at the heart of what it is to be a Lutheran.<br /><br />So, right from the start, you assume something and start from that position. But I don't buy your starting point.<br /><br />You want to say "I think I can hold to Lutheran doctrine and not worship by the Western Liturgical Rite" the answer is "Yes."<br /><br /><i>The way you conveniently make this arrangement work for yourself is to consistently make the claim that what our Confessions confess about practice does not apply to us today.</i><br /><br />And then this exaggeration. (Actually an interesting admission: earlier Larry said that our position on worship was actually a Scriptural position dealing with reverence. Now you say that it is a position dealing with practice.<br /><br />Which is it?)<br /><br />My position is not that every single statement on practice ought to be ignored. My positon is that if we are saying that quia means it teaches what Scripture teaches, then how can we be bound to something that Scripture does not teach? That doesn't make sense to me.<br /><br /><i>That's because, contrary to your opinion, our Lutheran forefathers knew what they were doing.</i><br /><br />My claim is not that they did not know what they were doing; my claim is that what they were doing is not what you think they were doing.<br /><br /><i>And, those "radicals" used many of the same arguments you continue to use: The Bible doesn't tell us how to worship; God doesn't care what we wear; Jesus accepts us just as we are; the only important thing is that we proclaim the Gospel, etc. </i><br /><br />I think you would find that the radicals in those days didn't really care about the context of the people they were looking to reach. They just wanted to throw away what the RC church did. They did not care about whether the people liked it, understood it, wanted it, or not.<br /><br />That is not my argument, is it?<br /><br /><i>The idea that we cannot know what our Lutheran forefathers would say about the "EntWo" being done by those who claim to subscribe to their Confessions ignores the fact that they've already spoken out very clearly on this issue. "That's NOT us! We do not abolish the Mass, etc."</i><br /><br />Well, no. Because now we are in a different situation, different context, and the change is being made for a different reason. <br /><br /><i>It is really hard to fathom how anyone claiming to be Lutheran would even try to make the case that our Lutheran forefathers would be supportive of those who borrow and employ the worship practices of those whom our Lutheran Confessions condemn.</i><br /><br />Once again, a little bit of muscling going on here...<br /><br />The reason they would be supportive is because they would see 1. That we are doing what we are doing because of where people are; the changes nature of the situation. 2. Because they would know that worship is about Christ and not about form. That is confessed endlessly in the Confessions.<br /><br /><i>When I see the "EntWo" being done by Lutherans (and I see a LOT of it in my particular District), I, as a Lutheran, confess, "That's NOT us! We do not abolish the Mass, etc."</i><br /><br />Yes. And my position is that if you are doing this and connecting it to a quia subscription, I don't see how you can also support sola Scripture, except to gut sola. Or reject it.<br /><br /><i> In the words of Wyneken, as quoted by Pres. Harrison, "I don't know if it's of God or the devil, but it's definitely not Lutheran."</i>.<br /><br />Well, once again, if to be Lutheran is to hold to man-made traditions as opposed to only what Scripture says, it is awful hard to have that be Lutheran.mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.com