tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post8118994196373886569..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: An Example of Reverent Worship and Why It MattersPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-8997067399067627642012-03-13T08:09:42.025-05:002012-03-13T08:09:42.025-05:00My suggestion--don't feed the animals. I appre...My suggestion--don't feed the animals. I appreciate your good work, you "Gottesdienst people" as do many.Christopher D. Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03906949438584923588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-13553180816965412722012-03-12T17:04:52.915-05:002012-03-12T17:04:52.915-05:00For someone to demand (based on their allegedly sc...For someone to demand (based on their allegedly scarred conscience) that I not take a second and a half to drop down on one knee to confess that Jesus is the King of the Universe is no different than someone telling me to put my cross inside my shirt because they are offended at seeing it.<br /><br />It's funny how Tim Tebow catches flack from the unbelievers for genuflecting in the end zone, whereas some Lutheran pastors catch you-know-what for doing so at the altar - but from Christians!<br /><br />Come, Lord Jesus!Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-45610570155433443502012-03-12T16:55:40.153-05:002012-03-12T16:55:40.153-05:00Dear Paul (McCain):
You write:
"I am oppose...Dear Paul (McCain):<br /><br />You write:<br /><br />"I am opposed to any suggestion, whether direct or indirect, actual or implied, knowingly or unknowingly, that Lutheran pastors and Lutheran congregations that choose not to elevate or genuflect or wear chasables or...whatever might be the preference of Gottesdienst editors, are in any way, shape or form doing something that is "less" or "not as good as" or "not quite authentically Lutheran" or "not fully Lutheran" or not [fill in the blank]. And if you would suggest that unless people practice the same kind of and number of ceremonies you prefer, they are not being reverent is also of grave concern to me."<br /><br />Okay. I guess the "best construction" is that you didn't read a word that I wrote.<br /><br />The way you have turned Gottesdienst into a straw-man makes me want to respond to you like this:<br /><br />"No, Paul, I most certainly do not beat my wife. But if I were to do so, I would (in Christian love) follow the standard LCMS practice according to LSB rubrics (and other CPH-approved materials) for doing so."<br /><br />(That sound you hear in the background is Mrs. Hollywood giggling).<br /><br />Sigh.<br /><br />Well, congratulations, Paul, I guess we know who can take over Christian News when Herman Otten dies running a marathon at the age of 150...<br /><br />"Life in the LCMS: goofy as all get-out, but seldom boring."(tm)Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-72186566810191313802012-03-12T16:54:30.590-05:002012-03-12T16:54:30.590-05:00My question is this -- if in an effort toward unif...My question is this -- if in an effort toward uniformity it means that those places accustomed to a fuller ceremonial would by this be asked to reduce the ceremonial of the Divine Service for the sake of unity and uniformity, I would say respectfully "no." There is inherently a minimum ceremonial which accompanies the Divine Service and reflects the unspoken assumption of the Lutheran Confessions. What this is, is , by nature, up for dispute. That I believe might be the point of reverence -- there is a minimum that is required of us Lutherans within the Divine Service -- again not out of ceremony but of confession since ceremonies are visible confession. Now where we draw the line and suggest this is the minimum, I think we can discuss but if that striving for uniformity would ask those with fuller ceremonial than this minimum to cut back, I, again, would respectfully say "no."Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-75797040314318432252012-03-12T16:46:38.256-05:002012-03-12T16:46:38.256-05:00In order to have a conversation with a bona fide i...In order to have a conversation with a bona fide interlocutor, that interlocutor must agree to listen and respond to what you are saying. Otherwise the exchange is fruitless.Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-62059692237991840162012-03-12T16:23:16.240-05:002012-03-12T16:23:16.240-05:00Paul,
Of course that's a good reason. I'd...Paul,<br /><br />Of course that's a good reason. I'd advise you the same as the guy with bad knees: deeply bow. Why? Well, to teach. Why would your people go through the roof? Some of it, I'm sure, is knee-jerk "too Catholic" stuff. In that case, it's weaker brother stuff: don't push it. But might this reverence to the Present Christ also be exposing a weakness in the people's belief? That is, once they actually see a ceremony that teaches just what we believe in the Supper - is it exposing a weakness in their faith? <br /><br />Those are the questions we encourage people to think through when we encourage certain ceremonies. <br /><br />Again: it's not the lack of genuflecting or deeply bowing: it's the why. <br /><br />And we should challenge each other without fear and admitting our own weaknesses. Ben Ball will hop in here soon to chide me for girl acolytes. And I chide myself every time I see the battle flag of the republic in the Prince of Peace's chapel.<br /><br />But like you on this point, I too have to decide how far and how fast. <br /><br />This is what Gottesdienst has always been about: arguing for and holding out the ideal so we can all move toward it. If we are all content with where we are and do nothing but pat each other on the back...well, that's the Elk's club not the Church. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-67073016765949162432012-03-12T16:17:21.119-05:002012-03-12T16:17:21.119-05:00Heath--the only thing I would say about that state...Heath--the only thing I would say about that statement is that it does suggest that not genuflecting makes one's faith suspect. It seems to imply that once someone has heard/learned about a custom like genuflecting, choosing not to do it for any other reason than he has bad knees or because he is a receptionist is inadequate. I don't genuflect, for one reason because it would send my congregation through the roof, but even if it wouldn't, let's say that I just don't want to. Is that a good enough reason?Rev. Paul L. Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16165560935974759610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-62856789777112728122012-03-12T16:15:36.958-05:002012-03-12T16:15:36.958-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. Paul L. Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16165560935974759610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-44202368618987966402012-03-12T14:28:48.890-05:002012-03-12T14:28:48.890-05:00"And if you would suggest that unless people ..."And if you would suggest that unless people practice the same kind of and number of ceremonies you prefer, they are not being reverent is also of grave concern to me."<br /><br />I think the whole point of Fr. Beane's post was that he was specifically saying the opposite of this: it's not about the number of ceremonies or the beauty of the space, it's about reverence. <br /><br />If someone does not, for example, genuflect - I'd ask him why. It's not the non-genuflecting, it's the why. Maybe he doesn't genuflect because he's got bad knees. Or maybe he doesn't genuflect because he is a Receptionist. <br /><br />If he doesn't genuflect b/c he has bad knees, I'd encourage him to deeply bow. Because this ceremony teaches and I think it's worth teaching. If he refuses, fine. But this is the point of adiaphora - that we can argue about what is best. I think genuflecting/bowing deeply is better than not doing so. You can think otherwise. That's the point of adiaphora: we try to determine what is best.<br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-30018087338010019972012-03-12T12:25:51.344-05:002012-03-12T12:25:51.344-05:00Gents, you do not understand me if you believe I&#...Gents, you do not understand me if you believe I'm personally opposed to reverent practice at the Lord's altar. It is my personal practice, whenever it is possible, both to elevate and genuflect, etc. I have nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to demonstrating my bona fides in such matters. I however think that is more than quite irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.<br /><br />I am opposed to "do it my way" in any direction in which it is expressed. I would prefer we all strive toward, and for, the greatest uniformity possible in all such matters, as per Luther's sage advice, quoted many times before. The "well the hymnal and agenda is ok, as far as it goes" mentality is something I see on both sides of the liturgical coin in our Synod these days.<br /><br />I am opposed to any suggestion, whether direct or indirect, actual or implied, knowingly or unknowingly, that Lutheran pastors and Lutheran congregations that choose not to elevate or genuflect or wear chasables or...whatever might be the preference of Gottesdienst editors, are in any way, shape or form doing something that is "less" or "not as good as" or "not quite authentically Lutheran" or "not fully Lutheran" or not [fill in the blank]. And if you would suggest that unless people practice the same kind of and number of ceremonies you prefer, they are not being reverent is also of grave concern to me.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-37961348189803682982012-03-12T12:07:22.715-05:002012-03-12T12:07:22.715-05:00I think it is rebellion - plain and simple. If su...I think it is rebellion - plain and simple. If such ceremonies as elevating and/or genuflecting (and other traditions such as the covering of the head by ladies) are truly adiaphora, they should really not even be noticed - let alone commented on anbd objected to.<br /><br />Lutherans have learned very well how to play the "conscience card." <br /><br />But when people object and start complaining about their consciences, maybe there is more to it than that. Maybe it is the ancient desire for control (libido dominandi) or it could simply be a desire not to submit to God, to the Church, to the pastor, to our fathers in the faith, or whatever. <br /><br />Either way, it sure looks like original sin.<br /><br />Otherwise, how indeed could anyone object to reverence or how another person expresses his piety?<br /><br />There is a passage of The Screwtape Letters that deals with the "worship wars" in the church of England. It is Satan that makes people sneak a peek to see who is crossing himself. The same goes for other ceremonies.<br /><br />People who have a problem with such ceremonies have the option not to do them themselves.<br /><br />Unless, of course, the goal is to dominate and bully another person (lay or clergy) to compel them to "be more like me." <br /><br />No matter how you slice it - the answer is sin.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-88313587072796379292012-03-12T10:31:28.386-05:002012-03-12T10:31:28.386-05:00This video and post are a joy to see and read. Fr...This video and post are a joy to see and read. Fr. Vladislav was a student of mine in Novosibirsk.<br /><br />My question is this: how could any Christian, not to mention Lutheran, nor to mention Lutheran pastor, nor to say anything of confessional Lutheran pastor, find cause to object to this kind of devotion and reverence?Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-78585566442241326652012-03-12T07:17:56.614-05:002012-03-12T07:17:56.614-05:00Amen! Men who wear chasubles, who walk and conduct...Amen! Men who wear chasubles, who walk and conduct themselves reverently around the altar, who "hold their hands a certain way" do so from a completely different motivation than those who completely ditch the liturgy, who wear Khakis and polo shirts to conduct the service, etc. I don't think that this is a fair comparison by the German pastor that was referenced on Cyberbrethren.com.Rev. Paul L. Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16165560935974759610noreply@blogger.com