tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post7098374930117055726..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: Tony Jones Wants a Divorce. Me Too!Pr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-84334600981529580502013-11-26T13:29:45.867-06:002013-11-26T13:29:45.867-06:00"Church is boring. I’m glad I don’t waste tim..."Church is boring. I’m glad I don’t waste time, money and effort on it. Mainline Protestantism is pretty much Something White People Like"?<br /><br />I don't understand why some people are so "race conscious." It seems like a bizarre throwback to segregation and apartheid. This is kind of creepy, and frankly, has no place in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-2134066225991871522013-11-26T12:46:57.026-06:002013-11-26T12:46:57.026-06:00Dear George:
This is indeed troubling. And it is ...Dear George:<br /><br />This is indeed troubling. And it is ubiquitous. For example, the Lutherans in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Kenya (ELCK) are disturbingly undiverse. I would wager that not more than one in a thousand is white, and the dearth of Asians in that church body could only be considered a scandal to the modern suburbanite American Christian.<br /><br />What to do?<br /><br />Of course, there is at least a passing relationship to the demographics of the country. And as far as American Lutherans go, the vast majority of Lutherans are of Germanic or Scandinavian origin. And most Lutherans learn the faith from their parents. Having said that, I do have parishioners of all ethnicities in my congregation, though most are French. Why? Well, I'm in Louisiana. Here in the South, we do have Lutheran churches comprised of mostly or all black people. That's going to be a little demographically different in a small town in rural Iowa or Minnesota - where a lot of our churches are concentrated.<br /><br />If your implication is, that we're hostile to non-whites, you should have the courage and the integrity to come out and say it. Is this what you mean to say? I live in a racially-mixed neighborhood. My congregation is respected in our community, even if most of our black neighbors prefer to attend the Methodist and Baptist churches they were raised in. <br /><br />Any by the way, the church we confess in our creeds is the una sancta. We are one with the ELCK and churches across the globe. Our church is the most ethnically diverse organization in the history of the world. Our church knows no single border, nation, language, or culture. And it is high time we stop treating the rest of the world's people like colonies to enlighten. News flash: Africa is now evangelizing Europe. And thanks be to God they are!Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-30430087725043013672013-11-26T12:43:05.270-06:002013-11-26T12:43:05.270-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-86296730335807437822013-11-26T12:27:37.942-06:002013-11-26T12:27:37.942-06:00Dear George:
First of all, Estonia has an establi...Dear George:<br /><br />First of all, Estonia has an established Christian presence. How arrogant to think they need American missionaries. The Siberian Evangelical Lutheran Church grew out of the Estonian Church. And I think Bp. Lytkin (SELC) - who was ordained under the auspices of the Estonian Church - is in a better position to deal with them than we are. How does he deal with them? They are not in fellowship with women clergy. They will not participate in any rites with vested women. They make it clear that a woman "pastor" is not a pastor, nor is she ordained. They do not send pastors to teach women seminarians in their seminary - which is what the LCMS did for many years in Slovakia - where 30% of the candidates for pastoral ministry were women.<br /><br />What witness did this give to the world? What message did this send to Lutheran churches around the world being hard-pressed to maintain biblical orthodox teaching on male-only ministry?<br /><br />I know of at least one young American whom the LCMS sent as a lay missionary to Slovakia who spent an entire year receiving "communion" from a priestess because she assumed that the LCMS was in fellowship with this body, and, nobody told her this was wrong.<br /><br />Missionaries are to preach what Christ sent them to preach. We don't partner with the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Jews - even though both have been terribly oppressed by Communism. We are primarily preachers of the Gospel, not social workers. <br /><br />I find a disturbing trend of acceptance of female "ordination" - and I think it's because deep down inside, there is an embarrassment that we are out of step with the majority of Protestant Christianity in having capitulated to feminism. There is a part of us that is embarrassed by the Word of God, and we don't want to be accused of being a "fundie."<br /><br />If our confession is so unclear that young LCMS church workers are communing from a woman "pastor," this is indicative of a problem with the clarity of our confession, wouldn't you agree?Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-35773760007926053412013-11-26T10:26:24.326-06:002013-11-26T10:26:24.326-06:00George, are you the same George Waite who recently...George, are you the same George Waite who <a href="http://lutheranzephyr.com/2013/08/28/decline-of-what/" rel="nofollow">recently posted</a> on another blog: <i>"Church is boring. I’m glad I don’t waste time, money and effort on it. Mainline Protestantism is pretty much Something White People Like"</i>?Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-51365253473332342702013-11-26T08:18:49.747-06:002013-11-26T08:18:49.747-06:00For a church that "celebrates diversity"...<i>For a church that "celebrates diversity", anyone else notice that it's 99% White and middle/upper middle class?</i><br /><br />That has NOT been my impression at Zion-Detroit, which is admittedly uniquely Godly in many ways. That aside, one can, I suppose, celebrate the diversity of the Church and of Heaven at large. And I'm not sure that diversity of Heaven itself, <i>necessarily</i> excludes those classed as White (sic) or the upper/middle class (sic).<br /><br />Hopefully, if one can make allowances for the "difficult circumstances for many years" of others, perhaps some small token gesture of compassion can be made available for the historical origins and circumstances of the Lutheran Church at large, in America. And whatever the genetic composition of the "average" Southern Baptist congregation happens to be ... something dictated in some part by history and geography ... of some importance is that such gatherings prefer, on average, to lock Christ Jesus up in heaven on Sundays. In short, it's not like the grape-juice swilling Arminians are all that faithful to the Word, either. <br /><br />Obviously, an evangelistic outreach to other nationalities (of origin) can and must be made, as our Lord encourages the Church to teach all nations ... although it must be said that, while the Lord used a corded whip to cleanse the Temple, He didn't use it (or Dame Statistics) to spur His followers on at Mt. Olivet. Obviously there have been many human failures, along the way, to follow His urgings. But I'm not sure we are called on to divide the nations further, by focusing so intently on melanin or the coins in someone's pocket. While it may be <i>exceedingly</i> difficult for the White and certain classes of economic development to wiggle through the eye of a needle ... anyone else notice that Jesus has declared that with God, nothing is impossible?<br /><br />I don't think that it's simply an expression of that "positive psychology" flummery. God loves the White and Joseph of Arimathea, too, despite all their hideous failures and silences, be it in the streets or within the halls of the Sanhedrin.<br /><br />Your (unworthy) servant,<br />Herr Doktor Michael L. Anderson, M.D., Ph.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158953802996685938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-84222784486158693542013-11-25T23:38:12.460-06:002013-11-25T23:38:12.460-06:00For a church that "celebrates diversity"... For a church that "celebrates diversity", anyone else notice that it's 99% White and middle/upper middle class?<br />The Tea Party probably has more non-White members; the Southern Baptist convention's average church certainly does.lsiepw-Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10661842923653646288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-25009124160112141092013-11-25T23:31:19.832-06:002013-11-25T23:31:19.832-06:00So the LC-MS isn't going to send any more miss...So the LC-MS isn't going to send any more mission workers/teachers to countries like Estonia and Slovakia where there were women ordained under communism, even though these churches have been faithful under difficult circumstances for many years?<br />Wow.lsiepw-Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10661842923653646288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-63623306973355361842013-11-24T23:30:32.030-06:002013-11-24T23:30:32.030-06:00The Word found in the Epistles testifies clearly t...The Word found in the Epistles testifies clearly to an exclusively male clergy; just as does the earliest post-Resurrection behavior of the Risen Word. <br /><br />On Easter Sunday, the Lord forbids the astonished and gladsome St. Mary of Magdala to grasp Him. The reason, the Christ says, is that He has "<i>not yet ascended to [His] Father</i> (Jn 20:17)." But no such restriction as to touch occurs in the instance of one Didymus, eight days later (Jn 20:26), by the <i>still</i> unascended Christ. In fact, the Lord Jesus, in the interest of faith, seems to invite Himself to be literally man-handled: "Thrust your fingers into My side," He encourages the astonished and gladsome St. Thomas. "You, you my chosen and ordained Apostle are permitted to touch Me." <br /><br />The distinction between male and female could never be more pronounced, with respect to what is a Sacramental action upon the Ascension's occurrence.<br /><br />The Ascension signaled the coming fulfillment of the Spirit's descent, which event empowered the Apostles to preach the Word and ... no less importantly ... to administer the Body and Blood of our Lord; to handle Him, as it were. The Apostles in turn ordained other men to do the same, to feed newly established churches, through means of a laying-on of hands (Acts 8:14, 17).<br /><br />In the New Era of Grace, women may have at times prophesied and testified to the saving Truth (as did e.g., Philip of Caesarea's four daughters; and indeed Mary of M herself, to those cowering gents behind locked doors), but there is no explicit Scriptural witness to women handling the Eucharistic elements in the course of the "breaking of bread."<br /><br />An argument from silence? Granted, this may well be so; but the differential treatment of the Magdalene and "the Twin" is conspicuously noteworthy, and in the economy of God's Word, certainly beyond that of caprice or coincidence.<br /><br />His ways are not our ways; and in a world in which the "Church" at large is increasingly going off the tracks, and insisting that egalitarianism is the prime proposition by which it stands or falls, this revelation sadly becomes ever more evident. <br /><br /> <br /><br />Michael L. Anderson, M.D., Ph.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158953802996685938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-23559192629918732882013-11-24T21:18:30.377-06:002013-11-24T21:18:30.377-06:00I had a bit of a different reaction to this...
htt...I had a bit of a different reaction to this...<br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/billykangas/2013/11/are-you-really-calling-for-schism-tony-jones/Billy Kangashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01604198086150699972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-79533847720523664762013-11-24T17:42:48.311-06:002013-11-24T17:42:48.311-06:00It comes as little surprise that many pastors are ...It comes as little surprise that many pastors are willing to tolerate the idea of women pastors, when the LCMS has refused to come down firmly on the matter of women reading Scripture during worship. That's all the "foot in the door" they need.jonathanpaulmayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01700384925558851084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-46923864337929067192013-11-24T13:28:04.123-06:002013-11-24T13:28:04.123-06:00It's the sequence Krauth noted a century and a...It's the sequence Krauth noted a century and a half ago: first error asks mere toleration; it moves on to demand equality; it invariably finally insists on the removal of truth itself. That's why the harmless little snake head trying to squeeze through the door needs to be rather ruthlessly smashed with the rock of the Lord's Word!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-24896843228353533122013-11-24T12:34:09.200-06:002013-11-24T12:34:09.200-06:00"In the LCMS, if any congregations or rostere...<i>"In the LCMS, if any congregations or rostered lay church workers call for the "ordination" of women, they should be removed from the roster by the district president with oversight. If a pastor teaches such doctrine, he should be defrocked. And if a district president refuses to do his duty in this endeavor, he should be defrocked."</i><br /> <br />Within the Missouri Synod polity, the action of "defrocking" a divinely called pastor of a LCMS congregation for promoting or taking part in pastrix ordination consists of two parts. First, a congregation may depose their pastor (remove his divine call) for Scripturally based reasons. Second, the Synodical District may, through its Dispute Resolution Process, expel a church worker from the synodical roster. Either action may occur first, but presuming one action is justified, the other action should then follow. When only one action occurs, and the other action does not, then one or more actions may (or not) occur:<br /><br />1. The deposed pastor submits his resignation from membership in the Missouri Synod.<br />2. The expelled pastor submits his resignation from his Divine Call to the congregation.<br />3. The congregation withdraws from the LCMS because the District expelled its called pastor from the synod roster.<br />4. The congregation is expelled as a synodical member for refusing to depose its called pastor who has been expelled from synodical membership by the District.<br /> <br />A District President, who has no Divine Call as a pastor of a congregation, but only serves as an elected corporate executive, is not "defrocked" but is only expelled from synod membership. Without synod membership he is not eligible for a Divine Call as a pastor of a Missouri Synod congregation or to hold the office of District President.<br /><br />Finally, as one can readily see from public examples, the actions which should be taken are not always the actions that have been taken.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-22639767610901244462013-11-23T14:46:51.974-06:002013-11-23T14:46:51.974-06:00"In the LCMS, if any congregations or rostere...<i>"In the LCMS, if any congregations or rostered lay church workers call for the "ordination" of women, they should be removed from the roster by the district president with oversight. If a pastor teaches such doctrine, he should be defrocked. And if a district president refuses to do his duty in this endeavor, he should be defrocked."</i><br /> <br />This brings to mind an August 11, 2008, article, "<a href="http://fatherhollywood.blogspot.com/2008/08/more-lcms-winking-at-womens-ordination.html" rel="nofollow">More LCMS Winking at Women's Ordination</a>," discussing the "strange working relationship" ("selective fellowship"?) between the LCMS and The Evangelical (Lutheran) Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia (ECAC).<br /><br />Also, a November 19, 2010, article "<a href="http://gottesdienstonline.blogspot.com/2010/11/lcms-and-womens-ordination.html" rel="nofollow">The LCMS and Women's 'Ordination'</a>" discussing the LCMS signing a "working agreement" (is this "selective fellowship"?) with the Silesian Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession, <br /><br />And then there is the February 19, 2012, article, "<a href="http://gottesdienstonline.blogspot.com/2012/02/question-concerning-districts.html" rel="nofollow">A Question Concerning Districts"</a>, which discusses pastrix ordination in the "Mekane Yesus Lutheran (sic) Church (sic) in Ethiopia" (EECMY). There is also a secret "partnership agreement" (another euphemism for "selective fellowship"?) between the LCMS and the pastrix-ordaining (for >13 years) EECMY, whose General Secretary Berhanu Ofgaa (since 2009) is also on the clergy roster of the LCMS, under the ecclesiastical supervision of Ohio District President Terry Cripe.<br /><br />And there are the other <a href="http://wmltblog.org/2013/07/president-harrison-the-lcms-and-ecumenical-dialogue-first-thoughts-a-first-things-blog/" rel="nofollow">pastrix-laden religious organizations</a> like NALC, CORE, ACNA with whom the LCMS has lately been <i>playing footsie</i>.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.com