tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post6242309143494949698..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: Finally, Sts. Timothy and Titus get contextualPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-33564108936176927302010-09-18T10:44:45.908-05:002010-09-18T10:44:45.908-05:00"Chapel is not a classroom. It is not a build..."Chapel is not a classroom. It is not a building or time meant primarily for learning. It is not a laboratory. It is not a practice for anyone, either in the pews or pulpit."<br /><br />Kyle:<br />I dare say that the Mass and daily Office in the seminary chapel is indeed a laboratory, a place of learning, and a place of practice for the seminarians; it's all these things, among others. For it is a part of the seminary experience of forming a man for priestly service in Christ's Church. As it is today, parish churches are viewed as places where seminarians get to practice preaching. This, preaching before the public in a parish situation, is a clear violation of the Confessions. I suggest we flip things around, and start to look more to the sem. chapel as the place where excellent worship practices are modelled, and where students are both fed spiritually and get to practice delivering sermons.Dcn Latif Haki Gaba SSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13032212390625343868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-88776625347041500612010-09-08T22:16:21.212-05:002010-09-08T22:16:21.212-05:00Dear Eric:
You are confusing justification with v...Dear Eric:<br /><br />You are confusing justification with vocation. <br /><br />With justification, there are no hoops. Jesus does it all. It is purely by grace.<br /><br />Vocation is not. There are indeed hoops. If you want to be a Navy Seal, you have to be able to swim. If you don't like water and are afraid of guns - you have no vocation to be a Seal. You should be weeded out.<br /><br />Every vocation has hoops: doctors, airline pilots, lawyers, etc. It is not an act of love to allow a man who flunks Anatomy 201 to wield a scalpel. Nor is it love to permit someone with vertigo to fly F15s. Weeding out is a good thing - especially if you are in the co-pilot seat or on the operating table.<br /><br />To become a pastor, you must read foreign languages, study the Bible, speak in public, deal with people, you must have a work ethic, you must maintain a GPA, you have to pass a theological interview, etc. There are hoops (and I don't mean Kingsman basketball).<br /><br />Chapel is to the seminarian what a lab is to a medical student. It is not "just another opportunity to worship" for the sake of convenience - take it or leave it. No, the seminaries have chapels because they are important, an integral part of pastoral formation. Otherwise, raze them and turn the grounds into parking lots.<br /><br />Jesus saves you apart from your works. But to become a pastor, there is a ton of work involved in order to be trained properly - and that is an act of love for the parishioners these men will eventually serve.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-48265334861624726792010-09-08T21:41:12.148-05:002010-09-08T21:41:12.148-05:00Larry,
I agree that it is a time for Law - but wh...Larry,<br /><br />I agree that it is a time for Law - but what is the purpose of your law -- to correct their error, or to kick the lousy louts out? To teach them the value of the Word, or to weed them out?<br /><br />Now, Mark does bring up a good point - the question should be asked (perhaps by professors) why they are here if they have no desire to go to chapel - call for them to examine themselves. Excellent - I agree whole heartedly with that. I'm all for confronting, extolling, admonishing -- but I've seen too many folks simply jump through hoops that I would hate to turn chapel into simply another hoop.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-26904029691737097982010-09-08T20:28:22.889-05:002010-09-08T20:28:22.889-05:00I guess I would quote the "part and parcel&qu...I guess I would quote the "part and parcel" argument. I look back at my days at RF, and I remember those who were regular chapel attenders. Anecdotally, to my feeble memory, it seems that those are the people who have remained teachers.<br /><br />I also remember those who would joke about not going, finding excuses in every corner. Granted, the late 70s was not the heyday of confessional liturgical worship, but I always thought that since God's Word never returns void, I may as well be there and get what I could, even if the preacher or liturgist was as sinful as I was. Hence, the beauty of the liturgy and its forms. Even if I, an extremely poor and miserable sinner, might read Scripture and the liturgy, I can't go wrong.<br /><br />20+ years go by, and I am sitting in a teachers' conference evening "worship service" with the RF chapel band playing. One of the young ladies was dressed up as if she were ready to go bar hopping- low cut top and bad make up. After the service, as I saw them loading out, I noticed that the same young lady was more appropriately dressed for worship while wearing jeans than she was while in the "worship service." Obviously, she found the experience an entertainment venue more than divine service.<br /><br />Though I may not know enough of my church history that all of you do, I at least know the difference between Christian liberty and the desire for the Word.<br /><br />Not only was I formed much by Steve Hein and Bob Schaibley at RF, and later Karl Fabrizius and Fritz Eckert, I was given the tools to "sharpen steel with steel." Though I am not yet comfortable to require our men to go to a minimum of chapel services, it only seems reasonable that they would want to hear the Word, as well as steel themselves in hearing it. Would it be more fitting for professors to counsel those who obviously stay away, asking them to examine themselves about their desire for and calling to the OHM? Or are we afraid to scare them away?<br /><br />Still, the church marches on, despite me. Or you.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11847938740068356981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-38689079841070906172010-09-08T07:54:13.296-05:002010-09-08T07:54:13.296-05:00Dear Eric:
It isn't "force" to draw...Dear Eric:<br /><br />It isn't "force" to draw a line and say who will become a pastor and who will not. A man may fail Summer Greek. He mail even be given a second chance. But if he can't pass it, he can't be a pastor. It just isn't his vocation.<br /><br />If I have no interest in wrenches and pipes, I have no vocation to be a plumber - no matter how much I may want to want to be a plumber, no matter how much I may seek after the benefits of being one.<br /><br />If a potential pastor would rather play a child's game than walk 50 feet away to where the body and the blood of the Lord are being administered, where the Word is being preached, and if this is done repeatedly, flagrantly, and even boasted about - I can't imagine Luther just shrugging and deciding that this is a job for the Gospel rather than the Law.<br /><br />There are some things that render a man unfit for the ministry. I know you disagree, Eric, but I believe showing such contempt for God's Word is a case for the law and not for the gospel.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-65611646194125720432010-09-08T05:40:06.925-05:002010-09-08T05:40:06.925-05:00It's not a matter of thinking that something i...It's not a matter of thinking that something is better - it is a matter of the use of force. It is one thing to say and teach that one thing is better - it is another to mandate it and enforce it under the threat of force.<br /><br />President Harrison gives one of my favorite Luther quotes on this topic - http://mercyjourney.blogspot.com/2010/09/i-did-nothing-word-did-everything.html <br /><br />And JMcKinkley - you are right!Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-80923681226173971352010-09-07T21:58:14.241-05:002010-09-07T21:58:14.241-05:00Yeah. Sorry about my crass sarcasm. I just reall...Yeah. Sorry about my crass sarcasm. I just really cannot believe that people don't think that it could be said that someone should actually go to chapel instead of play games. Really though... you will not find anything better to do with those 20 minutes... I promise. I would also think that everyone else actually thinks that their parishioners cannot find anything better to do with their hour on Sunday morning. Not even football.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09438549039834186126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-29170939984557233712010-09-07T21:27:14.953-05:002010-09-07T21:27:14.953-05:00Dear Kyle:
Christian liberty or Christian liberti...Dear Kyle:<br /><br />Christian liberty or Christian libertinism?<br /><br />Here is <a href="http://hemmersphere.blogspot.com/2010/09/growth.html" rel="nofollow">a different Lutheran view</a> courtesy of Dr. Norman Nagel and Pr. Jeff Hemmer.<br /><br />May the Lord preserve us from being so crass as to take His grace for granted and turn His Word into a joke.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-91293303593703369282010-09-07T21:12:19.110-05:002010-09-07T21:12:19.110-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09438549039834186126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-26092839991318655892010-09-07T14:13:10.402-05:002010-09-07T14:13:10.402-05:00Ha! It could be "ChapelBlog" - a new co...Ha! It could be "ChapelBlog" - a new contextual form of worship... ;-)Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-43433669282782066582010-09-07T14:03:24.750-05:002010-09-07T14:03:24.750-05:00It was just pointed out to me that the time stamp ...It was just pointed out to me that the time stamp on my comment looks as if I posted during chapel. This is not the case. I love time zones.Jordan McKinleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14996988778508760854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-74545910997197805652010-09-07T12:12:09.492-05:002010-09-07T12:12:09.492-05:00I despise preaching and God's Word while IN th...I despise preaching and God's Word while IN the chapel at 10 in Fort Wayne. God be merciful to me, a sinner.Jordan McKinleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14996988778508760854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-72647232977239994152010-09-06T20:56:10.139-05:002010-09-06T20:56:10.139-05:00Flacius,
Ah, but we used to fund them without don...Flacius,<br /><br />Ah, but we used to fund them without donors. We used to fund them via Synod: everybody's offering plate money around the country went into funding seminary education. Now but a pittance from the plate goes there. <br /><br />If we had the collective will to do it, we could do away with the big donor throwing his weight around by going to a different funding model. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-3222894210896929442010-09-05T17:45:50.868-05:002010-09-05T17:45:50.868-05:00Getting back to the original subject:
Pastor Cur...Getting back to the original subject: <br /><br />Pastor Curtis...unfortunately, we cannot fund any institution without donors. This is the case with all the Concordia colleges and universities. <br /><br />If this is happening (a chapel band), then someone thinks this will bring in more students or a donor is pushing for it. Perhaps, those of us who don't like it should write to the administrations that they will receive no more donations from us. Additionally, pastors and others can tell the administration that they will not encourage any potential students to attend that institution. Or the other option is to encourage orthodox Lutherans to all attend on institution and shape it in a positive direction.Matthias Flaciushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16694173538247881415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-5359314275029075052010-09-05T17:43:07.093-05:002010-09-05T17:43:07.093-05:00Kyle,
What makes chapel mandatory and not the dai...Kyle,<br /><br />What makes chapel mandatory and not the daily Matins at 7:30, or the 4:30 vespers? Or in Fort Wayne the midweek services over at Redeemer? Or why, if I have service out here at 10:45, am I not morally compelled to go to service at the neighboring congregation that has an 8 am service - I could go and be back in time. Is that now mandated? Did I commit gross sin this morning by not attending a service which I might have? There are sermons on-line that you could listen to right now - are you are we despising preaching if we don't listen to these sermons at all times?<br /><br />Despising the Word is not optional. Do not despise the Word. We are to hear the Word with gladness. But that does not mean that every time there is preaching you must hear it. <br /><br />Scripture has not mandated the daily attendance of worship. No one in authority at the Seminaries has mandated this. Is it good to go - Yes indeed! Well, okay, most likely (given the initial topic here). But the depth of my devotional piety does not define me as a Christian. <br /><br />I do daily matins at my Church. I think this is good. I would not say that members who do not attend are no longer Christian, nor would I think that Pastors who do not have daily matins are evil non-christians. It is important to come and hear the Gospel -- but it's importance is not demonstrated by merely making it a law of what we do.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-70308511938546040632010-09-05T15:33:42.388-05:002010-09-05T15:33:42.388-05:00During the epistle reading this morning these word...During the epistle reading this morning these words from Philemon rang in my ears: "Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, yet for love's sake I prefer to appeal to you."Josh Osbunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17906913610780375868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-74651223374514543932010-09-05T14:32:18.309-05:002010-09-05T14:32:18.309-05:00Eric-
We should fear and love God so that we do no...Eric-<br />We should fear and love God so that we do not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred and gladly hear and learn it. This doesn't sound optional to me. Chapel IS mandatory. Christians will go whether or not it is required for certification.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09438549039834186126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-19199490886981711542010-09-05T12:13:44.831-05:002010-09-05T12:13:44.831-05:00Kyle,
Your point is precisely why I would guess t...Kyle,<br /><br />Your point is precisely why I would guess that chapel hasn't been made mandatory. Chapel shouldn't be viewed as simply a hoop to jump through, or something that one simply does. Nor should it even be primarily a learning thing - it is a place of the preaching of the Gospel and the forgiveness of sins. We don't want to shift that focus too much off of that.<br /><br />Larry,<br /><br />Two things. 1 - One can still have respect for the Word and preaching and not attend chapel -- I doubt we would ding the pastors in Fort Wayne because they don't show up to chapel when they could go and hear the Word. It's something I long for more so now that I am in the parish (what a joy to hear the Word preached to me!). I would rather see Seminarians more involved in congregational life for their training though, as none of us end up at a congregation that looks like the chapel.<br /><br />2. You keep tossing out how they are unfit for the office. I am too. Before every sermon I've preached from my pulpit I have prayed with Luther, "O Lord God, dear Father in heaven, I am indeed unworthy of the office and ministry in which I am to make known Thy glory and to nurture and serve this congregation... but since though has appointed me to be a pastor and teacher. . ."<br /><br />Don't be so quick to wash people out. . . a quarter wash out already (most on vicarage), and then once in the parish another 20% wash out in three years. Of the folks that started with us, less than 60% are in the parish - God attends to preserving the the unworthy stewards of His Grace. I'm not going to be too quick to try to cut off more.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-73288970463698375082010-09-04T23:32:31.262-05:002010-09-04T23:32:31.262-05:00Pr. Beane,
Yes, but even medical residents are no...Pr. Beane,<br /><br />Yes, but even medical residents are not simply learning. They aren't using fake sutures or fake needles or fake ultrasound machines. They are doing real things on real people. This is the same thing in chapel. Real sin. Real Gospel. Real people. I think if we focused on this as the primary purpose of chapel, then it will be conducted in a way which students will indeed learn.<br /><br />Although, I'm thinking that the mass does function in some sort of eschatologically didactic way. When Christ returns, we will know what to do, because we are already doing it in the mass. Both clergy and laity will remember the foretaste that they were given in the mass. Sitting in the pew is indeed a good way to prepare for presiding, yet you still cannot say that you know how to do it until you have done it. Likewise, sitting in the pew is a great way to be trained for the worship and the life which is to come, yet we cannot say that we know how to do it until we do it.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09438549039834186126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-8819201854722407992010-09-04T22:38:18.301-05:002010-09-04T22:38:18.301-05:00Dear Kyle:
I agree with you for the most part.
B...Dear Kyle:<br /><br />I agree with you for the most part.<br /><br />But a seminary chapel has the *additional* use of being a "classroom." In the same way, a hospital is a place of healing. But a hospital that is attached to a medical college has the additional purpose of training doctors.<br /><br />And I believe that chapel is the main way pastors are trained in worship and preaching. The classroom, the dorm, the library, the nursing home - all are important. But chapel is where (I believe) a huge amount of real learning happens, where Word and Sacrament actually happen. It is where seminarians learn liturgy, preaching, music, reverence, etc. What is learned in chapel can't be taught in the sterile isolation of a classroom.<br /><br />In that sense, a seminarian attending chapel is something different than a lay person attending services. It is a place of worship - but it is also more.<br /><br />Some seminarians see it as study time or play time. And as far as I'm concerned, the seminaries ought to correct that misunderstanding. Chapel attendance should no more be a mere option or a luxury than sitting in the classroom and paying attention is in that place.Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-64255944043709921082010-09-04T22:18:02.564-05:002010-09-04T22:18:02.564-05:00Eric, Larry - Chapel is not a classroom. It is no...Eric, Larry - Chapel is not a classroom. It is not a building or time meant primarily for learning. It is not a laboratory. It is not a practice for anyone, either in the pews or pulpit. It is where the Word is proclaimed and the Sacraments administered. Yes, people will learn something, but this is not the point. You go to chapel because you are a part of a community, and this is when and where the community comes together to pray, sing, hear and receive the gifts. To skip is to despise the gifts and neglect your neighbors. Not a good start for pastoral ministry.<br /><br />Seriously, why do we not see the 3rd Commandment as being regulatory enough? If you are worried that you skipped chapel too much, then you probably did. As far as I'm concerned, there is no quota or limit to how much you can miss. You just do it. Go to chapel. End of story. Just like Sam's dad did. Skipping? Not an option.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09438549039834186126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-5676971505437321152010-09-04T21:50:45.230-05:002010-09-04T21:50:45.230-05:00Dear Eric:
Why not just make chapel a class and s...Dear Eric:<br /><br />Why not just make chapel a class and say you have to go?<br /><br />It's funny how other institutions manage all of this "overhead" somehow.<br /><br />But the bottom line is this: if a man doesn't *want* to go to chapel, he is UFM - and hopefully he will either have an epiphany, or he will bomb out in some other way. I believe that there needed to be more "weeding out" at seminary. Maybe they have fixed it by this time.<br /><br />But it is really goofy to have mandatory classes, mandatory field ed, mandatory vicarage, mandatory Sunday attendance, mandatory papers, mandatory TIs... but requiring men to be in chapel - *the central place of pastoral formation* - would somehow be "monkish" or wrong.<br /><br />Gads.<br /><br />The laity deserve properly trained pastors - and they are trained in chapel as much as they are trained in Greek class. And it isn't "strangely monkish" to require pastors to attend Greek class. It's called "vocation."Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-16466215325715187252010-09-04T21:42:16.008-05:002010-09-04T21:42:16.008-05:00@ Larry,
The Seminary will remove a student who f...@ Larry,<br /><br />The Seminary will remove a student who flagrantly disregards worship, who refuses to go... if that worship is field work or vicarage. <br /><br />Also, if you regulate chapel attendance, that is suddenly adding a whole layer of oversight and the like - perhaps with the dean of students - but then you have to define what is a reasonable excuse, how many absences and the like. You can't just say, "If it is flagrant" - there has to be something concrete, because you are talking about removing people from a publicly accredited program which they have paid for. I think making things mandatory (outside of specific classes making it mandatory) is messier than you think. <br /><br />Now, please, do not think that this means I am diminishing the idea of chapel - I have long argued that both sems should have full-time campus pastors, someone who is to run the services and provide pastoral care to the students (faculty and staff not so much, because as permanent residents they should be well tied to a local congregation). However, chapel is part of the individual's personal devotional life... saying, "you must go just because it's chapel" without tying it into a specific class is sort of like saying, "If you don't read Portals of Prayer each day, we're going to kick you out" or "If you don't do the Treasury of Daily Prayer daily we'll kick you out." It's just... oddly monkish.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-50657585826500730882010-09-04T20:07:51.448-05:002010-09-04T20:07:51.448-05:00If I had ever told my father, and Pastor for most ...If I had ever told my father, and Pastor for most of my life, "I think I will sleep in this Sunday morning as a practice of my Christian Liberty." He would have slapped me and threw me in the car. Then, after church, I would have done all the cleaning the church needed for months.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-76087078141631951352010-09-04T17:40:38.292-05:002010-09-04T17:40:38.292-05:00Dear Eric:
My point is that the powers that be sh...Dear Eric:<br /><br />My point is that the powers that be should make chapel mandatory in some way - just as they do with classes.<br /><br />And yes, if a seminarian neglects chapel - and I don;t mean occasionally or with some reasonable excuse - but fragrantly and with self-justification - like our foosball players - yes, I say they need to be tossed.<br /><br />Chapel should be treated like the classroom. You blow it off, you show contempt, you boast about not going and play games instead - then you need to find your true vocation, because the OHM isn't it.<br /><br />If we "regulate" class attendance, grades, and theological interviews, we should also "regulate" chapel. At very least, men who show contempt (contempt, for goodness's sake!) to worship and God's Word ought to be called on it, or released and sent off to some other vocation.<br /><br />I mean, really. Is this rocket science?Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.com