tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post3153394140600397700..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: No Drums, PleasePr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-17052966671155234302009-07-02T18:11:19.980-05:002009-07-02T18:11:19.980-05:00I'm presently enjoying a book on the science o...I'm presently enjoying a book on the science of music, <i></i>Music, the Brain, and Ecstasy: How Music Captures Our Imagination (Harper, 1997), by Robert Jourdain. I'm only about halfway through it, and have been interested by the intersection of that book with our conversation here. An upcoming chapter promises to be all the more apropos, but already the discussions of harmony and rhythm have been quite fascinating to me.<br /><br />I'll not provide extended quotes here in the comments of this post, but I have gathered thus far that <i></i>harmony (based upon tonal centers and guided along culturally-defined scales) is processed in the same portion of the brain as language; and that basically all forms of music are established upon harmony. The one exception to that norm is the "purely percussive." That would mark a difference, for example, between the percussiveness of a drum vis-a-vis the percussive characteristics of a piano or a bass guitar. If I have understood the author correctly, the processing of <i></i>meter (or "beat") occurs in a different part of the brain than language and harmony. Whether this pertains to Dionysian categorizations or not, it does offer something to think about in connection with the observations and comments of this thread. Predominantly percussive music may draw the listener away from text and language, toward a different manner of hearing and "feeling" than more harmonious music.<br /><br />The book also discusses two different kinds of rhythm, distinguished in a way that is also germane to our conversation. There is the rhythm of <i></i>meter, which "gives order to time" by providing "a sort of grid upon which music is drawn." Then there is the rhythm of "<i></i>phrasing," which follows the contours of language and "imparts a kind of narrative to music," the "mechanism by which a composition can play out a grand drama." "Phrasing" allows music to tell a story, because it is closely related to language. It allows the organization of music on a large scale, in contrast to meter, which organizes music on a small scale.<br /><br />"Without meter," says Jourdain, "music takes on the static quality of Gregorian chant. Without phrasing, music becomes repetitious and banal." He also goes on to say that, "when one kind of rhythm is emphasized, it tends to obscure the other," because "the two kinds of rhythm are not entirely at peace with each other" (pages 123-124).<br /><br />Thus, as Pastor Eckardt suggested in his post, and as I have tried to suggest in some of my comments, music that is dominated by drums with their percussive emphasis on meter, competes with the phrasing of language and its emphasis on the text. I think that is pertinent to the sort of music that is put into the service of the liturgy and hymnody, and, apparently, not only for "aesthetic" reasons. In making that observation, I should also clarify (again) that I don't find aesthetic discussions to be inappropriate or out of place. By the same token, I do not believe the discussion of music can be removed entirely to the aesthetic realm. There is also a science to the way that music is conceived, performed, conveyed, received and "interpreted" at the fundamental level. I find these things interesting, and I am inclined to think they may be significant.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-84793973288360970442009-07-01T19:08:21.532-05:002009-07-01T19:08:21.532-05:00"If Pr. Cwirla is taking a pragmatic approach...<i>"If Pr. Cwirla is taking a pragmatic approach to the music in the liturgy..."</i><br /><br />A careful reading will show that I am not taking a "pragmatic approach" to the music of the liturgy. I am, in fact, arguing that it is precisely an aesthetic argument. The original post attempts to make a pseudo-scientific argument, based on a questionable category (Dionysian music) and a quasi-science (Scentics).<br /><br />I would instead argue that worship offers up the material in service of the holy by way of the aesthetic. <br /><br />The sainted Martin Franzmann said it well: "Another argument might be called the "tin whistle" argument. Its essence is something like this: "After all, a man can make music on a tin whistle to the glory of God, and God will be pleased to hear it." True, true, true-if God has given him nothing but a tin whistle; but God has given us so infinitely much more. When He has given us all the instruments under heaven with which to sing His praises, then the tin whistle is no longer humility but a perverse sort of pride."Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12220554730855545255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-16935630209901414922009-07-01T16:44:35.703-05:002009-07-01T16:44:35.703-05:00If Pr. Cwirla is taking a pragmatic approach to th...If Pr. Cwirla is taking a pragmatic approach to the music in the liturgy, would he take a pragmatic approach to other aspects of liturgical life that have traditionally been the object of artistic, aesthetic expression? For example:<br /><br />Churches would best be made out of corrugated steel and cinder blocks? They function to shelter the worshipers, provide a place to gather, and for the liturgy to be held.<br /><br />Vestments would best be made out of burlap or plastic? They would still serve functionally to designate the minister and any assistants.<br /><br />Paintings and statuary could be replaced by stick-figure images with printed-out labels (sans serif) below them to indicate who the picture is of.<br /><br />People would rightly reject these because they would be ugly and would cause a scandal in the congregation, just like a well-intentioned but tone-deaf singer or untrained organist would.<br /><br />I can't see how Pr. Stuckwisch isn't right; there is a place for aesthetics and aesthetic discussions in the liturgy.<br /><br />What's the opposite of a scandal? Whatever it is, it's what beautiful elements in worship serve to uphold.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09360602965070109675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-62539069392290866702009-06-30T10:47:25.801-05:002009-06-30T10:47:25.801-05:00Pastor Moriarty,
Thanks for your input. The ques...Pastor Moriarty,<br /><br />Thanks for your input. The question of whether our Divine Service derives from the Seder is seriously debatable, though on the other hand it does not really derive from the synagogue either. <br /><br />More likely, as Gregory Dix has shown in his monumental tome <i>The Shape of the Liturgy</i>, it is a mixture of the synaxis of the synagogue and the ritual meals of Jewish families or friends. It's a fascinating study.<br /><br />More to the point, however, the idea that ecstatic dance, whether Miriam's or David's, was part of the ritual of worship comparable to our Mass, is questionable at best.<br /><br />We, too, have a "place" for drums and dance. That is, we do not condemn their use among Christian people. But as there is a time and place for all things, so we do not condone certain things in certain places. <br /><br /> Solomon was concerned about the loud noises of the masons during the erection of the temple, so he ordered that they did their stone carving at another location. From this we may derive the idea that the temple was not a place for certain activity which was not proscribed elsewere. Et cetera . . .Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-68496307458313408672009-06-26T09:50:48.716-05:002009-06-26T09:50:48.716-05:00I'm coming into this whole discussion rather l...I'm coming into this whole discussion rather late. But I just (sorry I couldn't resist the word "just") wanted to say that in ancient Israel and modern Judaism the Festival of Succoth (Booths/Tabernacles) involved dancing as part of the ritual. Also Simchat Torah. I'm totally in agreement with those that our Divine Service is more of a stately, reverent service. But in Israel, there were worship occasions where unbridled dancing was part of the worship, and I'm sure drums and tambourines were all a part of it (cf. Miriam's dance and song at the end of Exodus 15). What is bothersome, probably, to most of us, is that the Divine Service derives from the more solemn Passover Seder. I don't think there was any dancing during those services. Bringing in snare drum and dancing into our Divine Service "just" seems out of place to the flow of the "drama" of the liturgy. But as far as tradition is concerned, both ancient Israel and modern Judaism did have a "place" for drums and dance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-33377265863700841132009-06-26T00:12:09.963-05:002009-06-26T00:12:09.963-05:00PBS had a decent documentary this week - Wednesday...PBS had a decent documentary this week - Wednesday night here (Nova?) - about the study of music & neurology/brain activity. Much of the questions being raised here dovetail with what was presented there. Secondly, within the last two weeks I remember reading a citation of early missionaries' experience - either with Aborigines or in Papua New Guinea (I'll try & find the citation) - where the natives refused the adaptation of their drums into the new-to-them worship of Christ, since their former pagan usage equated the drums with calling forth dead spirits. Again, if I can find the citation, I'll post it; but the point is that modern missionary practice in Africa has undoubtedly been influenced by a more lenient Western culture - just as it has here in the States - and as such, carries its own "contemporary" baggage as well.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08725448680817489504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-105216031042567662009-06-25T11:15:38.562-05:002009-06-25T11:15:38.562-05:00"While in America, these same instruments and..."While in America, these same instruments and gestures are used to evoke an individualistic 'spiritual' experience, the African's i saw were reverent and communal."<br /><br />I think this is precisely to the point: Corporate vs individual participation. Singing along with a band is not the same as singing a hymn all together. The former is an individual activity; the latter is a corporate activity. Percussion and rhythm are really beside the point. The drum set is a band instrument, and band-led music is not conducive to unitive, corporate participation. <br /><br />For the record, I do not deny the inherent power of music to tap into the emotions - not only rhythm but also harmony and melody. There are Beethoven piano sonatas whose melodic progressions move me to tears without any word associations whatsoever.<br /><br />A lot of what is called "contemporary Christian music" can be very emotionally manipulative. From what I have read, tune often precedes text in CCM composition.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-65267798405545552212009-06-24T21:42:16.954-05:002009-06-24T21:42:16.954-05:00Writers like Augustine (d. 430) were concerned tha...Writers like Augustine (d. 430) were concerned that the sensuous qualities of the arts could lead to idolatrous worship of the creation rather than to the proper worship of the Creator. i've seen video of Lutheran churches in Africa using a historic liturgy while employing small, hand beaten drums and body gestures some would call dancing. While in America, these same instruments and gestures are used to evoke an individualistic 'spiritual' experience, the African's i saw were reverent and communal. This was evident in an obvious lack of squinty eyes; and the gestures were performed in unity and in relation with other congregants rather than as an expression of individual emotive/ecstatic experience.Rev. Michael Monterastellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16445244885038398811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-76868815763898470432009-06-24T20:47:47.621-05:002009-06-24T20:47:47.621-05:00Some may consider Paul and Silas’ prison-time to b...Some may consider Paul and Silas’ prison-time to be an exception (Acts 16:16-40), but the hymns which Paul and Silas sang were not sung to an ‘unchurched’ audience so much as they were sung for the building up of the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:12). During their time of persecution their hymns strengthened the faith which was increased by the Word of God they sang, even in the midst of persecution. The Philippian jailer was saved not because of the hymns they sang, but because Paul was there to tell the jailer how people are saved. Paul, the Apostle sent by God, was there to deliver the goods God had sent him to deliver. Rather than run away from persecution, Paul and every Christian strengthened by the traditional hymn singing, remained in the jail even after the doors had been opened by an act of God. The act of God which kept Paul from fleeing imprisonment and persecution spared the life of the jailer and allowed other unbelievers to hear Paul’s message.Rev. Michael Monterastellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16445244885038398811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-31293577989707367272009-06-24T20:41:45.441-05:002009-06-24T20:41:45.441-05:00no scriptural reference to worship music describes...no scriptural reference to worship music describes God’s people singing to or for anyone except the Lord and those (circumcised?) people already living among His people. i think this is interesting because many times have i heard CCM advocates try to justify the use of CCM in church because they think it is something to which visitors and their children can relate.Rev. Michael Monterastellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16445244885038398811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-78178434703151390392009-06-24T20:06:50.496-05:002009-06-24T20:06:50.496-05:00The sounds of church music matter. They affect our...The sounds of church music matter. They affect our frame of mind; and our frame of mind can influence how we interpret the words and actions which are heard, seen, and done in worship. Across all cultures, many mothers, babysitters, and daycare workers have observed that infants fall asleep easier when listening to certain kinds of music. Wisconsin dairy farmers have observed that even their cows give more milk when certain kinds of music are played. Most remarkable is the music David played on his harp which was able to cause the evil spirit to depart from King Saul. The prophet Daniel (7.11) even characterizes the sound of a horn as speaking actual words. It appears as though at least some musical sounds might have universal affects regardless of cultural conditioning.Rev. Michael Monterastellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16445244885038398811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-54834357886355716152009-06-24T18:14:24.134-05:002009-06-24T18:14:24.134-05:00I am assuming when you speak of drums, you are ref...I am assuming when you speak of drums, you are referring to a drum set as is normally used in popular music. Various drums and configurations more suited to orchestral use may not bother me so much, depending on how they are being used.<br /><br />I don't like drum sets in church because of the nature of the instrument. They are *not* a lesser instrument, but they are an instrument of a category not compatible with traditional worship--and it's for the exact same reason that you don't generally see them in an orchestra: They are designed for solo or small-group performance.<br /><br />Now if a group of people want to get together and sing some praise songs that are doctrinally sound, and do so in a format and setting that is suitable for small group and solo performance, awesome! But the Divine Service is not a spectator event. The songs sung are a teaching tool, and one of the ways the congregation receives the Word is in the songs that are sung *by the congregation*.<br /><br />Some may answer that the congregation sings in contemporary worship too; but I would argue that it's simply not the same thing. In contemporary worship, the praise team is (in theory) doing the worship, and the congregation is supporting the praise team. It sets a completely different tone for what's going on in the service. The drums are not the point, but a drum set indicates the use of the praise team format. I could go on about this forever, but I'll stop for now. :o)<br /><br /><br />Not to beat a dead horse, but I did not believe that I was engaging in an ad hominem argument. For one thing you're neither a fundamentalist nor (as far as I know) a legalist. I certainly believed that this was the origin of that theory, though it looks like I may have been mistaken.<br /><br />An association with that doctrinal framework (if in fact there is one) would not necessarily discredit this view of music, but I think it is something that should be considered. Then again, maybe I'm just overreacting. When I was a kid, I was taught that all modern music is always sinful...and the reasons given were the exact reasons you're describing here for forbidding it in church.Anonymous Lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13146153012785131550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-16293215923454493772009-06-24T17:12:32.304-05:002009-06-24T17:12:32.304-05:00"Finally, it seems that everyone on this thre..."Finally, it seems that everyone on this thread seems agreed that drum sets in church are always a bad thing. So, let's simply put the question out there: why is that so?"<br /><br />In my opinion, the modern drum set (or the electronic equivalent, to eliminate the visual element) is an instrument of musical idioms that don't work well with liturgy and hymnody, namely jazz, pop, and rock. None of these forms are conducive to through-composed liturgical chant or the extended, text-driven corporate singing that hymnody demands. Mine is a purely pragmatic argument - it doesn't work.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-49170225285556387402009-06-24T16:00:07.175-05:002009-06-24T16:00:07.175-05:00Recognizing that an advocate for a drum set in the...Recognizing that an advocate for a drum set in the sanctuary is not likely going to be reading Gottesdienst on a regular basis...<br /><br />=======<br /><br />What--no lurkers here? Not sure about that.<br /><br />Who are you...I really wanna know...Yeah, I really wanna know...mqllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571180618331662493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-5861192145898322322009-06-24T14:57:06.666-05:002009-06-24T14:57:06.666-05:00It is indeed an appropriate reference. Here it is...It is indeed an appropriate reference. Here it is: http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1459WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-68765646140702088082009-06-24T14:07:10.416-05:002009-06-24T14:07:10.416-05:00Ok, this I can entertain, thank you. Open discuss...Ok, this I can entertain, thank you. Open discussion on these matters is, after all, something we need, if we are to make headway in the contemporary worship wars.<br /><br />I would offer the following by way of response.<br /><br />First, the percussive nature of certain instruments is not at issue, as far as I am concerned. As you pointed out, even a piano is percussive. The drum set, however, is a percussive instrument which sets and keeps a profound audible beat. Perhaps it is the fact that the beat--the pulse of tempo--is profoundly audible that makes this instrument unlike various other percussive instruments. I'm not sure, but I do believe that there is something quite fundamentally characteristic of it which is discernable and recognizable. Perhaps a wave analysis could even provide scientific data, I don't know.<br /><br />Second, the resonance with the natural impulses of man is also something I would like to explore. I do not believe it is accidental that there are sexual overtones in the origins--and even in the nomenclature--of rock and roll, and jazz music. Dancing to a beat is a cultural expression of certain rhythms of the body, which no doubt also has something to do with movements considered 'sexy'. I am not suggesting here that I know exactly what the correlation is, only that it exists.<br /><br />Third, I don't believe I am the first to question the wisdom of employing tribal percussive instruments in African Christian Churches, not least because of the syncretism they might suggest.<br /><br />Fourth, I believe the drum set is not only emblematic of certain styles of music, but plays no small role in defining those styles, for reasons I indicated above.<br /><br />Fifth, my reference to Dr. Reuning was not meant as an appeal to authority, but as an appropriate reference. I would have thought that was self-evident.<br /><br />Sixth, I find Nietsche's reference interesting, and perhaps worthy of further study.<br /><br />Finally, it seems that everyone on this thread seems agreed that drum sets in church are always a bad thing. So, let's simply put the question out there: why is that so?Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-19009534217651532382009-06-23T22:31:18.422-05:002009-06-23T22:31:18.422-05:00Ecclesiastes 7:5
Here is the basic problem with t...Ecclesiastes 7:5<br /><br />Here is the basic problem with the original post as I see it: <br /><br />1. The Scriptures seem to extol a variety of instruments in the service of "praise," including the percussive and rhythmic timbrel. No evidence was presented to indicate these were not used in the temple and synagogue.<br /><br />2. If there is such a thing as a "Dionysian" form of music, then it needs to be clearly defined by its characteristics. The definition of the original post is music that has a prominent (strong) beat that "resonates with the natural rhythms of natural man." Is this 72 beats per minute? What are these natural rhythms?<br /><br />3. If there is such a thing as a "Dionysian" form of music that corresponds to some "natural rhythms," then this should be transcultural phenomenon since all human beings will share in the same "natural rhythms." The same criticism should then pertain to the use of rhythm and percussive instruments in African Christian churches.<br /><br />4. The offending instrument is claimed to be the modern "drum set," though other instruments would seem to be equally capable of establishing a strong beat that corresponds to our natural rhythms. There is no reason to single out the drum set if a "strong beat" is the criterion for "Dionysian music," if there indeed is such a thing.<br /><br />5. The stakes of the discussion would appear to be fairly high, as the opening paragraph indicates that such things are to be "discouraged, even disallowed in the Church." The article concludes by saying that a drum set is "inappropriate for the service of God's Holy Word." This is very strong statement based on nothing more than an appeal to authority (Reuning) and speculation without supporting evidence.<br /><br />6. I offered Frederich Nietzsche who uses the terms "Dionysian" and "Apollonian" principles, as an example of someone who agrees with the major premise (that Dionysian is bad) but for a different reason (that Dionysian is group rather than individual). I realize that Nietzsche is somewhat notorious in Chirstian circles, but he is the only one I can find who uses these terms in an aesthetic argument.<br /><br />7. The argument as presented proceeds as follows:<br /><br />a. Dionysian music is bad for worship because it has a strong beat.<br />b. A drum set is used to establish a strong beat.<br />c. Contemporary music uses drum sets.<br />d. Therefore, contemporary music is Dionysian.<br />e. Therefore, contemporary music is bad for worship.<br /><br />I am challenging the validity of (a) and the exclusivity of (b).WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-52294191304272072732009-06-23T21:30:41.472-05:002009-06-23T21:30:41.472-05:00I have no problem with honest arguments, as most e...I have no problem with honest arguments, as most everyone who knows me is well aware. But your abuse of the rules of argument is rather startling, frankly. How can we proceed, if you aren't even listening, but merely choosing to be purposely contrarian, as you put it? And as for your quotation of Proverbs, are you now presuming to classify yourself among the wise? Judicat lector.Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-11019259429545990092009-06-23T16:45:45.810-05:002009-06-23T16:45:45.810-05:00The record certainly does speak for itself. Keep ...The record certainly does speak for itself. Keep preaching to the choir boys, Fritz. I'm glad to know this is a criticism-free zone.<br /><br />"It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools."WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-39902479753371195892009-06-23T14:26:27.733-05:002009-06-23T14:26:27.733-05:00Pastor Cwirla cites some of what I wrote in an eff...Pastor Cwirla cites some of what I wrote in an effort to prove that I was advocating arrhythmic music, but of course none of the quoted material proves his point, as any reader can see. Non sequitur.<br /><br />At least he admits to being "purposefully contrarian." I'll say. Is there some unwritten rule that it's good to be purposefully contrarian? I'd say such an approach is unhelpful, to put it charitably, which I am straining to do. Frankly I am as bewildered as Dr. Stuckwisch is as to the reason for this kind of discourse.<br /><br />So now my argument is "weak and potentially fallacious," but only to someone whose logical fallacies in rejoining my case are in plain view. All that remains, finally, is a rejection of my point for no other expressed reason than purposeful contrariness, without which we can all get on quite well.Fr BFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14554699361739289492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-32109023692488114852009-06-23T13:39:53.560-05:002009-06-23T13:39:53.560-05:00Pastor Cwirla, in the quote that you have again sh...Pastor Cwirla, in the quote that you have again shared from Pastor Eckardt's original post, you will note that he refers, not simply to the presence of a beat or rhythm, but to the strength of the beat. That is the point that I understood from his original comments, and he has since clarified that point; unless I have misunderstood him altogether.<br /><br />I still think you are being unfair in your assessment and characterization of Pastor Eckardt's comments. But I concur that it is important to question assertions and debate the merits and demerits of a case. Dismissing arguments on either side of the discussion is not conducive to clarity or precision.<br /><br />I'm confused by your citation from Nietzsche, but I suppose I am rather glad to be on the opposite side of his opinion in these matters.<br /><br />Pastor Eckardt indicated, in comments he made at the CCA this past week, the he first became aware of the Dyonisian vs. Apollinarian distinction from an article by Dr. Reuning some twenty-five years ago or more. He also noted that the article in question marked a turning point for him, in his own thinking.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-43215844431055572522009-06-23T13:01:24.839-05:002009-06-23T13:01:24.839-05:00First, let me state very clearly that I would nev...First, let me state very clearly that I would never intentionally be an advocate for the devil.<br /><br />Am I being "purposely objectionable"? I prefer to think of it as purposefully contrarian.<br /><br />Do I have a serious disagreement with what has been written here? I think it's a weak post hoc aesthetic argument against a musical form and instrumentation the author doesn't like in church, a personal preference hidden under a coyly paradoxical "I like it therefore it's wrong" with a thin veneer of scientific objectivity and the physiology of music.<br /><br />The purpose of my objection: Because I agree with the conclusion of the original post, and I too run as fast as I can away from any drum set in the sanctuary (not to mention the aforementioned Roland keyboard along with mimes, clowns, and barefooted liturgical dancers), simply appending my Amen would be nothing more than the mindless refrain of a choir having been preached at. <br /><br />Recognizing that an advocate for a drum set in the sanctuary is not likely going to be reading <i>Gottesdienst</i> on a regular basis, except perhaps to thank God that he is not like other men, I offer my criticisms in the interest of honing what I believe is a weak and potentially fallacious argument. <br /><br />If this argument is going to play outside of liturgical Peoria, it will have to stand up to a few critical questions. You can't simply call citations of relevant Scripture "red-herrings" and plead "you misread me" whenever someone disagrees.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-81370035736500391902009-06-23T11:18:31.520-05:002009-06-23T11:18:31.520-05:00Pastor Cwirla,
Are you playing devil's advoca...Pastor Cwirla,<br /><br />Are you playing devil's advocate, being purposely objectionable, or in serious disagreement with what has been written here? I'm confused and would appreciate it if you would clarify your position. Thanks.Rev. Thomas C. Messer, SSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13740553600700598394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-54737335409668210562009-06-23T10:18:35.443-05:002009-06-23T10:18:35.443-05:00"I don't believe that even the original p...<i>"I don't believe that even the original post indicated a complete moratorium on rhythm or percussion."</i><br /><br />"But if I see a drum set, I know there's something wrong. A drum set keeps the beat, and strongly. It bespeaks a pulse, as it were a strong and powerful heartbeat. Too strong. Dionysian. Inappropriate for the service of God's Holy Word."WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-73524743180454557512009-06-23T10:17:15.147-05:002009-06-23T10:17:15.147-05:00"And, if I have understood the original premi...<i>"And, if I have understood the original premise and argument correctly, such a strong beat tends to drive one into himself, rather than drawing his attention outward."</i><br /><br />It's noteworthy that Nietzsche, who coined these term, argued oppositely. Dionysian music drew one out of one's limited and moderated Apollonian individualism into the throbbing mass of self-forgetfulness and excess.<br /><br />"Individualism, with all its limits and moderation, was destroyed in the self-forgetfulness of the Dionysian condition and forgot its Apollonian principles."<br /><br />To paraphrase Nietzsche: Let’s imagine what the psalm-chanting [liturgical] artist, with his ghostly [Gregorian chant] could offer in comparison to this daemonic popular singing.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.com