tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post3140750426862116384..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: Luther in the Antinomian DisputationsPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger130125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-42224381599364656702013-12-06T11:15:02.749-06:002013-12-06T11:15:02.749-06:00I neglected to note that Pastor Sonntag's pape...I neglected to note that Pastor Sonntag's paper on the 3rd use is specifically on the 3rd use of the law in the Antinomian theses. <br /><br />+Nathan Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-29230563504746852452013-12-06T09:40:37.594-06:002013-12-06T09:40:37.594-06:00Hey all,
Just catching this show now. Hopefully ...Hey all,<br /><br />Just catching this show now. Hopefully will get time to catch up sometime soon.<br /><br />In case it has not been mentioned yet, Pastor Holger Sonntag, who helped translate the Antinomian theses, wrote a short paper about the third use of the law which you can read from my blog here: <br /><br />http://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/silent-no-more-luther-lays-down-the-law-on-how-to-preach-the-law-200-proof-version/<br /><br />My blog post provides the condensed edition. <br /><br />Pastor Surberg has also done helpful work here as well, building off what Pastor Sonntag has shown. I sum up his key insights here: http://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/nail-in-the-coffin-surburg-decimates-new-perspective-on-sanctification/<br /><br />Jordan Cooper - look forward to hearing your podcasts. <br /><br />+Nathan Nathan Rinnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13994922104672096902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-27527697383326626272013-12-04T08:02:56.438-06:002013-12-04T08:02:56.438-06:00I see that. That was my shorthand for, "the L...I see that. That was my shorthand for, "the Law can/should be preached to the new man to encourage/exhort/instruct him to do good works" (third use).Rev. Joshua Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05265502288700164812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-89221229900343229822013-12-03T20:49:34.279-06:002013-12-03T20:49:34.279-06:00Taking Pr. Stuckwisch's advice to focus on the...Taking Pr. Stuckwisch's advice to focus on the Luther quote provided by Pr. Braaten, here, I think, is something interesting. <br /><br />First, Luther provides what to guard against in preaching among the pious, by saying: "For I ought not to say or preach: You are not under the remission of sins. Likewise: You will be condemned; God hates you etc. For these sayings do not pertain to those who have received Christ, but address the ruthless and wild."<br /><br />Then, Luther speaks this way regarding preaching to those who have received Christ, saying: The law then is to be attenuated for them and is to be taught them by way of exhortation: Once you were gentiles; now, however, you are sprinkled and washed by the blood of Christ (cf. Eph. 2:11, 13; 1 Cor. 6:11). Therefore now offer your bodies to obey righteousness, putting away the desires of the flesh, lest you become like this world (cf. Rom. 12:1-2; 6:13; Eph. 4:22). Be imitators of the righteousness of good works (cf. Tit. 2:14) and do not be unrighteous, condemned like Cain etc.; you have Christ.<br /><br />I hadn't thought of this before, but isn't this how Luther teaches the explanations to the 10 Commandments? First, he says what to guard against, that is, what not to do. "We should fear and love God so that we do not..."<br /><br />Then, in the second half of the explanation, he teaches what we are to do. That seems to be the pattern of the Luther quote from above (how not to preach...followed by how to preach). <br /><br />Also, when Luther says that the law is to be attenuated for them by way of exhortation, the word attenuate means "to soften or lessen the force." In other words, taking the entire Luther quote, he is saying that we should guard against the extreme ( You are not under the remission of sins. Likewise: You will be condemned; God hates you etc.). Rather, the law is attenuated (less force) by way of exhortation: You were this, but now you are this, therefore do this. That is the pattern in the quote, and it seems to match pretty well with the pattern Luther takes in the explanation of the commandments (don't do this...do this). So then, the law is not to be done away with among the pious, but it does take on a different look when preached among the pious. The Rev. Mike Grievehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05902941965399294815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-70195575044379192802013-12-03T19:06:54.944-06:002013-12-03T19:06:54.944-06:00George, in what sense does Paul mean "end&quo...George, in what sense does Paul mean "end" of the law in Rom. 10:4? For Orthodox Lutherans, the telos is fulfillment, as it is in the Greek. In contrast, for Gerhard Forde telos is termination. This interpretation runs roughshod over the Formual's identification of the Law as God's eternal will. Christ didn't terminate, destroy, or dispense with, God's eternal will, which is and shall always be part of His very nature.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-50897628406754653532013-12-03T18:57:59.925-06:002013-12-03T18:57:59.925-06:00Josh, yours is a beautiful, biblical, confession o...Josh, yours is a beautiful, biblical, confession of the Law, although I'm not familiar with the word "encourage" being used of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-54572595168906750482013-12-03T17:04:42.792-06:002013-12-03T17:04:42.792-06:00If you know exactly what to do..if you have been g...If you know exactly what to do..if you have been given the prescription…the answer…then to don't need faith. You have reverted to the law.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-87825959893700340542013-12-03T16:20:32.331-06:002013-12-03T16:20:32.331-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-72738262183214053052013-12-03T16:17:43.389-06:002013-12-03T16:17:43.389-06:00So what we're saying here is: The Christian sh...So what we're saying here is: The Christian should ignore the accusations of the Evil One as he twists God's law in order to make us despair of our salvation. All the more reason the Christian should meditate on the law as revealed in the Scriptures in order to distinguish what God really says from what the Devil is telling us that God's law says.<br /><br />Does that resolve the tension?<br /><br />I'm finding this discussion most edifying. The passions aroused are evidence that every one here takes these matters very seriously as every real theologian should.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12866782929731975629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-46486334012430293002013-12-03T16:03:57.244-06:002013-12-03T16:03:57.244-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-62807320304586666402013-12-03T15:55:40.181-06:002013-12-03T15:55:40.181-06:00Right!Right!Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-64604929216420897632013-12-03T15:52:17.914-06:002013-12-03T15:52:17.914-06:00George, I really encourage you to reread your post...George, I really encourage you to reread your post above where you used the exclusive particle and said what the Law "only" does. What you said there just does not fit the pattern of sound words. Would you not agree? Aren't those words a denial of the 3rd Use?<br /><br />And Pastor Hayes' comments are also good and very to the point. <br /><br />Can you see now how rhetoric of the kind you employed above sure does sound like a denial of the third use?Pr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-23073048907982783622013-12-03T15:47:55.968-06:002013-12-03T15:47:55.968-06:00Matt,
Here's how:
The Law comes at you and a...Matt,<br /><br />Here's how:<br /><br />The Law comes at you and accuses you of sin and you flee to Christ. You let Christ's forgiveness shout over the Law's condemnation. You ignore the Law's telling you are going to hell and you cling to Jesus forgiving you of your sins. Christ is the end of the Law for you.<br /><br />When the Gospel has done it's forgiving work on you, then you look at the Law and say, "Ok, now you can't touch me Law, I'm in Christ. Christ is my righteousness. What you can do for me is teach me how I can serve others."<br /><br />Get it?<br /><br />Ignoring the Law has to do with being saved by Jesus alone and not by works of the Law. The other has to do with serving your neighbor in the state of forgiveness.Rev. George Borghardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309789604336110565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-47181056940146149722013-12-03T15:47:37.527-06:002013-12-03T15:47:37.527-06:00For my own clarification:
The Law, being God'...For my own clarification:<br /><br />The Law, being God's will, is eternal (FC). Yet there is no condemnation, sin, death, and hell in the resurrection of the just. So even now, eschatologically, for the regenerate, the Law is not a curse because of Christ but their delight (Ps. 119). In that the believer still has a sinful nature the Law always accuses, but it also delights him according to the inner man (Rom. 7.22) and can encourage him. In that sense the Law does not only or merely accuse.<br /><br />Right?<br /><br />Rev. Joshua Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05265502288700164812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-48967161777254181012013-12-03T15:43:55.672-06:002013-12-03T15:43:55.672-06:00So should the Christian ignore the law, or meditat...So should the Christian ignore the law, or meditate upon the law in light of his salvation in Christ Jesus? I do not see how one can do both. I readily confess that I'm not sophisticated enough to grasp the paradox, but I don't see where the Christian is ever free to ignore the Word of God. My inclination is not to blame Pr. Borghardt for quoting it but to blame Luther for writing it.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12866782929731975629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-7691395395292719852013-12-03T15:41:26.765-06:002013-12-03T15:41:26.765-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-7668014748084145772013-12-03T15:37:29.486-06:002013-12-03T15:37:29.486-06:00Here is Third Use...
But, the one who has been re...Here is Third Use...<br /><br />But, the one who has been redeemed, freed, and forgiven, grabs hold of the Law and says, "You can't enslave me. I'm gonna use you to see how I can serve God! I'm gonna hear you, Law, and learn how I take care of my neighbor! Tell me, preacher, what I can do for those around me!"Rev. George Borghardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309789604336110565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-46900118986373232013-12-03T15:33:54.144-06:002013-12-03T15:33:54.144-06:00"only condemnation, sin, death, and hell.&quo..."only condemnation, sin, death, and hell." <br /><br />Not instruction, edification, exhortation? <br /><br />That statement sounds an awful lot like a denial of the third use (or at least a complete omission of it) to me, George. <br /><br />+HRCPr. H. R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-30393884262511582392013-12-03T15:23:45.899-06:002013-12-03T15:23:45.899-06:00Where the Law is preached, there is no Gospel - on...Where the Law is preached, there is no Gospel - only condemnation, sin, death, and hell.<br /><br />Where the Gospel is preached, there is no Law. It's fulfilled. It's condemning word must be ignored. <br /><br />Luther can say both. No excuses or amendments or changes. Where the Law, there is condemnation and death. Where the Gospel, there is forgiveness and life. <br /><br />Both are His. Both are true. Both are good. We need both. :)Rev. George Borghardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309789604336110565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-15725885711404061672013-12-03T15:12:27.567-06:002013-12-03T15:12:27.567-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-62519834755367587582013-12-03T14:59:07.896-06:002013-12-03T14:59:07.896-06:00Luther, not being Jesus, shouldn't have gotten...Luther, not being Jesus, shouldn't have gotten a capitalized "H." lol.Rev. George Borghardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309789604336110565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-1154743499715359812013-12-03T14:58:13.802-06:002013-12-03T14:58:13.802-06:00Here's Luther... (speaking for Himself)..
As ...Here's Luther... (speaking for Himself)..<br /><br />As the earth itself does not produce rain and is unable to acquire it by its own strength, worship, and power but receives it only by a heavenly gift from above, so this heavenly righteousness is given to us by God without our work or merit. As much as the dry earth of itself is able to accomplish in obtaining the right and blessed rain, that much can we men accomplish by our own strength and works to obtain that divine, heavenly, and eternal righteousness. Thus we can obtain it only through the free imputation and indescribable gift of God. Therefore the highest art and wisdom of Christians is not to know the Law, to ignore works and all active righteousness, just as outside the people of God the highest wisdom is to know and study the Law, works, and active righteousness.<br /><br />It is a marvelous thing and unknown to the world to teach Christians to ignore the Law and to live before God as though there were no Law whatever. For if you do not ignore the Law and thus direct your thoughts to grace as though there were no Law but as though there were nothing but grace, you cannot be saved. “For through the Law comes knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20). On the other hand, works and the performance of the Law must be demanded in the world as though there were no promise or grace. This is because of the stubborn, proud, and hardhearted, before whose eyes nothing must be set except the Law, in order that they may be terrified and humbled. For the Law was given to terrify and kill the stubborn and to exercise the old man.3 Both words must be correctly divided, according to the apostle (2 Tim. 2:25 ff.),<br /><br /><br />Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 26: Lectures on Galatians, 1535, Chapters 1-4. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 26, p. 6). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.Rev. George Borghardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309789604336110565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-85756519740060242012013-12-03T14:45:34.255-06:002013-12-03T14:45:34.255-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. George Borghardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309789604336110565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-73520211362719668762013-12-03T14:39:57.693-06:002013-12-03T14:39:57.693-06:00Matt,
It's all in the paradox! Luther brilli...Matt,<br /><br />It's all in the paradox! Luther brilliantly can keep two contradictory doctrines together!<br /><br />The Law condemns us for our sins. It kills. It accuses. It destroys. There's never comfort. There is only condemnation, hell, and death. It's always right. It's always true. It never goes away. Sin! Sin! Sin! Death! Death! Death!<br /><br />The Gospel is completely and totally the delivery Jesus Christ and Him crucified for you. In the Christ, there is no Law, no condemnation, and no hell. There's only the mercy and grace of God in Christ. You can't sin your way out of God's grace. You can't mess up your salvation. It rests totally on Jesus. In Christ, there's only eternal life. Forgiveness, forgiveness, forgiveness!<br /><br />Where the Law is being preached, there is no Gospel. <br /><br />Where the Gospel is preached, there is no Law.<br /><br />Now, the discussion here is about the preaching of the Law to the baptized (the New Man). The one who has been forgiven has been freed from the Law. The New Man doesn't need the Law. He is completely and totally fulfilled the Law in Christ. What then?<br /><br />But, the One who has been redeemed, freed, and forgiven, grabs hold of the Law and says, "You can't enslave me. I'm gonna use you to see how I can serve God! I'm gonna hear you, Law, and learn how I take care of my neighbor! Tell me, preacher, what I can do for those around me!"<br /><br />Does the Law condemn the Christian? It can't condemn the forgiven one. There is no sin to be forgiven in the saint! The baptized is totally and completely perfect in Christ.<br /><br />But, you and I, when we pick up the Law, because we are still sinners, it bites us. It condemns us. So, it drowns again the our old sinful nature, beats us down, and accuses us. It shows us again to be sinners!<br /><br />So, we run back to the Gospel! The Lord Jesus washes our sins again in baptismal water, in the Word, in His Body and Blood. <br /><br />These two doctrines are completely contradictory. When you speak in terms of Law, it's completely the opposite of the Gospel. When you speak in the Gospel, the Law must be ignored!Rev. George Borghardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309789604336110565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-71271352696800540082013-12-03T14:32:21.671-06:002013-12-03T14:32:21.671-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.com