tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post1219816774551796713..comments2023-11-05T02:55:10.230-06:00Comments on Gottesdienst Online: Guest Post: "The New Antinomianism: Denying Thesis 18 of Law and Gospel” By Rev. Mark A. PreusPr. H. R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16756503062523543708noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-2366807959721371772016-08-13T17:30:42.407-05:002016-08-13T17:30:42.407-05:00So... commit suicide when you are in danger of stu...So... commit suicide when you are in danger of stumbling, or ask God to take your life?<br />What are you suggesting, besides the ability to be sarcastic, it appears?elderdxchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18071222328972267419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-51632151071061200262015-11-21T00:43:05.605-06:002015-11-21T00:43:05.605-06:00Agreed. The classical Greek philosopher saw no di...Agreed. The classical Greek philosopher saw no dissonance existing between living the virtuous life, and being truly happy. In this our glittery and seductive age, however, while banking noticeably and heavily on the forgiveness afforded by Christ Crucified, we tend to distance ourselves from the behavioral repertoire expected of the "new creature" also afforded His Spirit. <br /><br />Leave it to those increasingly of the world, say like Lot's wife, to find being "born from above" as an existence somehow uncool, stodgy, and un-good.<br />Michael L. Anderson, M.D., Ph.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158953802996685938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-83491173044579019082015-11-21T00:10:19.960-06:002015-11-21T00:10:19.960-06:00"Actually the statement [i.e., we are free to..."Actually the statement [i.e., we are free to sin] does nothing more than to make the obvious clear that God has not put a mechanism in place that prevents us from sinning." -- George A. Marquart<br /><br />I beg to differ. The almighty and gracious God has set in place a mechanism which prevents us from sinning; indeed, quite effectively so, this side of heaven.<br /><br />It's called "Death."<br /><br />Your (unworthy) servant,<br />Herr Doktor<br /><br />Michael L. Anderson, M.D., Ph.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158953802996685938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-70943021357063957342015-11-03T19:57:10.781-06:002015-11-03T19:57:10.781-06:00Excellent article! I have noticed that there is a...Excellent article! I have noticed that there is a problem with always preaching the law as something so impossible that we should despair of even trying to follow it. The Gospel then becomes a license to sin. It is, of course, impossible to follow God's law perfectly, but it also should be preached in a practical sense as the excellent "third use" instruction it is.<br />Erich Heidenreich, DDShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12819223688598369327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-7175966239794707422015-08-26T15:56:24.547-05:002015-08-26T15:56:24.547-05:00Paul, there is also no Biblical or Confessional su...Paul, there is also no Biblical or Confessional support for the phrase, “Do not push beans up your nose.” As you wrote to jwskud, the FC is not comprehensive and does not cover every possibility. I don’t know whether you really do not understand or do not want to understand what I wrote. As I have written before, here is what this phrase does not mean:<br />It does not mean that we should sin.<br />It does not mean that it is good to sin.<br />It does not mean that sinning can somehow please God.<br />Actually the statement does nothing more than to make the obvious clear that God has not put a mechanism in place that prevents us from sinning. As both Scripture and the Confessions clearly assert, even with the Holy Spirit dwelling in each believer, even with each believer undergoing sanctification, we still sin. You would not accuse the Scripture or the Confessions of teaching a horrible doctrine; why me? <br />Peace and Joy!<br />George A. Marquart<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-89407362866416300672015-08-26T12:46:41.945-05:002015-08-26T12:46:41.945-05:00George, there is no Biblical or Confessional suppo...George, there is no Biblical or Confessional support for the phrase, "We are totally free to sin."<br /><br />No, we are not.<br /><br />We are set free from slavery to sin.<br /><br />That is a horrible phrase you are proposing and has no place in the Church.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-48552159393879310072015-08-26T12:45:40.393-05:002015-08-26T12:45:40.393-05:00The Bible makes it very clear that the Christian i...The Bible makes it very clear that the Christian is called to a life of struggle against sin and a striving to live the life to which they have been called. It think you are over-thinking all of this.<br /><br />Cling to Christ and strive to thank and praise, serve and obey Him, as He provides the opportunities.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-59332612000849447002015-08-26T06:23:48.554-05:002015-08-26T06:23:48.554-05:00"You are focused too much on yourself, frankl..."You are focused too much on yourself, frankly, and I sense a good deal of excuse making at work if you are not careful."<br /><br />That's the whole issue in a nutshell. If I'm trying to "do" works for God, am I not focused on self? Are my eyes not taken off the cross, at least momentarily? Is this not what Forde and others are getting at when they talk about "truly" good works, those we are not even aware of?<br /><br />That's why I've always wondered if the "trying" is, in and of itself, less God-pleasing than the simple "resting" in Christ and allowing the Spirit to work through me in ways I don't even think about.<br /><br />I really don't want it to be about me. I just want to thank God for the gift he's given me by living a pleasing life, as much as I am able. And yes, I don't want to be told I wasted God's talent(s) at judgment, so at least as far as that's concerned, I am me-focused, but I think the motivation is proper.<br /><br />Thanks, peace.jwskudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15641383927216557610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-59143930516393989402015-08-25T19:54:24.212-05:002015-08-25T19:54:24.212-05:00Luther lived in an age when people feared God. He ...Luther lived in an age when people feared God. He also layer had to write four papers against Antinomianism. He was often gob-smacked at how people held God's grace in contempt. <br /><br />In my own parish and culture, I would never tell my parishioners to "sin boldly."<br /><br />Preaching is art, not science, and it is not a one size fits all. Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-75919327886235355962015-08-25T18:35:52.551-05:002015-08-25T18:35:52.551-05:00Paul, in legal terms, we distinguish between two k...Paul, in legal terms, we distinguish between two kinds of reality: de facto and de jure. In this case, we are de facto free to sin, although we are not free to sin de jure. If we are not de facto free to sin, and we continue to sin, then it must take some effort to overcome whatever supposedly restricts our freedom to sin. Maybe you work very hard at sinning. I do not.<br />George<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-46881970013595066732015-08-25T17:15:25.025-05:002015-08-25T17:15:25.025-05:00Dear Rev. Beane: I know we are allowed to disagree...Dear Rev. Beane: I know we are allowed to disagree with Dr. Martin Luther, except for what he wrote in our confessions, but how do you feel about this:<br />13.”If you are a preacher of Grace, then preach a true, not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here we have to sin. This life in not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. . . . Pray boldly-you too are a mighty sinner.” (Weimar ed. vol. 2, p. 371; Letters I, “Luther’s Works,” American Ed., Vol 48. p. 281- 282)<br />Peace and Joy!<br />George A. Marquart<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-76392798116054609262015-08-25T15:47:56.284-05:002015-08-25T15:47:56.284-05:00I disagree that we are 'free to sin.' I w...I disagree that we are 'free to sin.' I would be terribly irresponsible to preach that from the pulpit. We are *forgiven* our sins. <br /><br />If I rack up a debt, and the one I owe cancels the debt, it means that the creditor is gracious and my debt is forgiven. It doesn't mean I'm free to rack up more debt. <br /><br />I think this is the difference between cheap grace and costly grace. Grace is free for me, but it cost our blessed Lord His lifeblood. <br /><br />I am not free to sin, but rather I am freed from sin. I think that is an important distinction. Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-15859289103563311382015-08-25T15:22:27.361-05:002015-08-25T15:22:27.361-05:00Dear Rev. Bean: Did I write that we should sin? B...Dear Rev. Bean: Did I write that we should sin? But we are obviously free to, because we do it all the time. Neither did I write or imply that it is good to sin. The thing we often overlook is something Rev. Marquart pointed out in “The Church and Her Fellowship, Ministry, and Governance, p 176, “In this kingdom He does not rule by means of natural reason, law, and coercion. Rather, He gently (and therefore resistibly , Mt. 23:37!) “draws” (Jn. 6:44.65) and invites (Mt. 11:28) sinner into His kingdom, gathering and sustaining them there with forgiveness, life and salvation through His holy Gospel and sacraments (Mt.13; 22:1-14; Jn. 3; 6; 15; 20).”<br />Therefore, “the magnificence of the Gospel and the magnanimity of the triune God” is in no way diminished when we agree that we should not sin, our Lord discourages us from sinning, but we are free to sin. That last clause makes no sense according to human reason, but it is at the heart of our relationship to God, Who long ago told us through the Prophet Isaiah, 55:8, “for My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.” We have to be careful that we do not mistake the traditions of men for the magnificence of the Gospel.<br />Peace and Joy!<br />George A. Marquart<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-84599733271016192072015-08-25T15:19:41.916-05:002015-08-25T15:19:41.916-05:00JWS, yes, as you seek to live the life you have be...JWS, yes, as you seek to live the life you have become in Christ, God is pleased. You are stressing out over unnecessary concerns. Of course you should do your best to avoid sin and temptation, as best you can, praying God will guide you and give you strength. When you fall, you return to Him for the mercy that He gives in Christ.<br /><br />You are focused too much on yourself, frankly, and I sense a good deal of excuse making at work if you are not careful.<br /><br />Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-71139505660687559632015-08-25T14:09:03.496-05:002015-08-25T14:09:03.496-05:00I don't agree that "we are totally free t...I don't agree that "we are totally free to sin." No, we are freed *from* our sins. The Gospel is not license. <br /><br />That is a very different thing. <br /><br />This kind of cavalier attitude toward the death-bearing cancer of our sins is what has led Lutherans into multiple regrettable forays into Antinomianism. <br /><br />It also diminishes the magnificence of the Gospel and the magnanimity of the triune God. <br /><br />Our Lord did not tell the woman caught in adultery: "Go, you are totally free to sin."<br />Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-89306154791471502212015-08-25T14:07:55.558-05:002015-08-25T14:07:55.558-05:00Wow, great post, Unknown! Thanks for that.
Just ...Wow, great post, Unknown! Thanks for that.<br /><br />Just to clarify, I never doubt my salvation. If I did, the Lutheran church would be in very big trouble indeed!<br /><br />Rather, what I doubt is whether or not God is pleased with how I live my life as a Christian. I know I'll be at the wedding feast (because of Christ's finished work and the faith granted me to believe in it), I just don't know if I'll be walking in saying I've simply done my duty (Lk 17:10) or I'll be walking in with tears in my eyes, knowing I wasted God's talent(s) (Mt 25:14-30). I'd like to make God "proud," as stupid as that sounds! <br /><br />So to make God "proud" of how I've handled his gifts of faith and works, I just seek counsel on what works will please him. Those I strive to do, against my desires, like turning away from porn? Or those I do in love without any thought of self, like getting to work on time or playing with my kids? So I do the one on purpose and trust the other is getting done by the indwelling Spirit.<br /><br />Don't know if that makes any sense...jwskudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15641383927216557610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-55890628133576682452015-08-25T14:03:05.599-05:002015-08-25T14:03:05.599-05:00George, we are not "totally free to sin"...George, we are not "totally free to sin" ... that is not the teaching Sacred Scripture, nor our Lutheran Confessions and your dear brother Kurt, would have recoiled in horror to read such a comment. Your comments are not very helpful here.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-70166522904231038162015-08-25T12:59:03.556-05:002015-08-25T12:59:03.556-05:00This Marquart totally agrees with Rev. McCain, and...This Marquart totally agrees with Rev. McCain, and my heart goes out to jwskud. I suspect that jwskud is representative of many pious, believing Lutherans whom the Church has failed to assure of their safety in the Kingdom of God. It is said that when Luther was particularly tempted in this regard, He would say, “I am baptized!” In this way he acknowledged that his salvation was totally out of his hands, and totally assured by the life, suffering, sacrifice, and death of our Lord. The freedom of which our Lord spoke, is precisely that: we are totally free to sin and to do good works. Neither one affects our salvation. But He does give us the Holy Spirit, so that, in the words of St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 2:16, “But we have the mind of Christ.” That is why we want to do the will of God, and we repent when we do not, fully believing that, Romans 8:38-39, “I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”<br />Just one word about “loving the Law and meditating on it day and night.” St. Paul calls the Law “the ministry of death” and the “ministry of condemnation” in 2 Corinthians 3. How can we love it then? The answer is that what we call “Law” is not always what the Bible calls “Law”. When the Psalmist exclaims, Psalm 1:2, “but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night,” the word he uses for “Law” is “Torah”, which, in its broadest meaning is “the mind or the will of God.” It does not mean what the FC defines as “Law”, The Solid Declaration, V. Law and Gospel, “ 12] Anything that preaches concerning our sins and God's wrath, let it be done how or when it will, that is all a preaching of the Law.” Therefore, when the Psalmist and we delight in the Law, we delight in “the will and mind of God”, because, 1 Corinthians 2:16, “… we have the mind of Christ.” Yes, it includes what we Lutherans call “Law”, but it also includes the Gospel. Therefore, we can even delight in the Law as we Lutherans define it, because we know that our Lord fulfilled it for us, and His righteousness is our inheritance from Him, assured not by our good deeds, but by His death and resurrection.<br />Peace and Joy!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-77888276236193610012015-08-25T11:51:58.578-05:002015-08-25T11:51:58.578-05:00I would also add in response to JWS that works are...I would also add in response to JWS that works are spontaneous but they are also very often deliberate acts of the will of the Christian, and that is as it should be. There has set in a paranoid obsession with eschewing any such notion such as the Christian cooperating with the Spirit, but that is clearly the teaching of Scripture.<br /><br />The FC is correct, but not comprehensively so. In other words, it speaks to a particular situation and need, but at the same time, does not exhaust this subject.<br /><br />I fear that we have permitted ourselves to feel "restricted" so say nothing more than what the FC does on these issues, when in fact, Scripture is replete with rejoicing in the opportunity to do good works, and loving the Law and meditating on it day and night, and so forth precisely **because** we are created new in Christ.<br /><br />Our dogmatic distinctions are helpful, but not if they become a straightjacket forbidding us to speak as Scripture speaks.<br /><br />As Marquart put, again, this odd "aversion to sanctification" has no basis in Scripture, the Confessions or our Lutheran orthodox and confessional tradition.<br /><br />Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-74888896845432875922015-08-25T11:35:56.757-05:002015-08-25T11:35:56.757-05:00FC SD 6:6-9:
"If believers and the elect chi...FC SD 6:6-9:<br /><br />"If believers and the elect children of God were perfectly renewed in this life through the indwelling Spirit in such a way that in their nature and all its powers they would be totally free from sins, they would require no law, no driver. Of themselves and altogether spontaneously, without any instruction, admonition, exhortation, or driving by the law they would do what they are obligated to do according to the will of God, just as the sun, the moon, and all the stars of heaven regularly run their courses according to the order which God instituted for them once and for all, spontaneously and unhindered, without any admonition, exhortation, compulsion, coercion, or necessity, and as the holy angels render God a completely spontaneous obedience. <br /><br />But in this life Christians are not renewed perfectly and completely....<br /><br />Hence, because of the desires of the flesh the truly believing, elect, and reborn children of God require in this life not only the daily teaching and admonition, warning and threatening of the law, but frequently the punishment of the law as well, to egg them on so that they follow the Spirit of God. Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-72915999490249593962015-08-25T11:05:18.751-05:002015-08-25T11:05:18.751-05:00I see what you're saying, and I'm not tryi...I see what you're saying, and I'm not trying to be argumentative. Obviously, even if a work is to occur spontaneously and naturally, it must be informed by something. How would we know how to love if love were not shown us and held up as an example?<br /><br />And yet, there's Matthew 6:3: But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing...<br /><br />There's Mt 25:37: Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?"<br /><br />Etc.<br /><br />Thus, the way I reconcile this issue (striving to good works vs. trusting good works will spontaneously be worked through me by the Holy Spirit) is to cover both bases. I strive to do good for my neighbor, I try to do good works, I volunteer, etc. I struggle against my personal sins. I try to cooperate with the Holy Spirit. That's one base "covered," although I would add that my motivation here is often one of fear, pride, or obligation. I help others because I should. I struggle against sin because I fear judgment (not with regard to salvation, but with regard to talent(s), ala 1 Cor 3:11-15. <br /><br />To cover the other base, I trust that God will work good through me (Phil 2:13), despite of myself, and that if I have nothing else to present at judgment, God will have supplied me with spontaneous good works which glorify him.<br /><br />Or maybe I'm just completely screwed up, which is very likely. In any case, I'm not averse to exhortation because I'm not trying, but because I AM trying to walk the line, as it were...but I see failure and shortcoming, not increasing holiness.<br /><br />Does that make any sense? Sorry to ramble.jwskudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15641383927216557610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-32012964073879533802015-08-25T09:26:54.393-05:002015-08-25T09:26:54.393-05:00"He clearly points out that the truly good wo..."He clearly points out that the truly good work is the one we don't realize we have even done. "<br /><br />That is not the case and has no basis in Scripture, the Confessions or any of our orthodox Lutheran fathers. <br /><br />One need only read Luther's conclusion to his commentary on the Large Catchism's discussion of the Ten Commandments to see that in fact we can and do know what those good works are we are to be going. No, we are not to regard them as meritorious before God, but yes, they are visible and known both to us and our fellow man, otherwise Christ's words about "let your light so shine before men that may see your good works" would make no sense.<br /><br />Here then is Luther:<br /><br />"Thus we have the Ten Commandments, a compend of divine doctrine, as to what we are to do in order that our whole life may be pleasing to God, and the true fountain and channel from and in which everything must arise and flow that is to be a good work, so that outside of the Ten Commandments no work or thing can be good or pleasing to God, however great or precious it be in the eyes of the world."Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-23444613332020489352015-08-24T19:56:37.945-05:002015-08-24T19:56:37.945-05:00Here I must say that I believe Pastor Marquart is ...Here I must say that I believe Pastor Marquart is in agreement with Forde. And Pastor Fisk agrees (see the 4:30 mark on this video):<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfryBnqBCLo<br /><br />He clearly points out that the truly good work is the one we don't realize we have even done. Like a servant girl doing her duty. It is loving and helping the neighbor, not constant introspection and analysis of "how we're doing" or how much we've cleaned up our lives. It is the work that flows naturally from our calling/vocation. <br /><br />As I've heard it said (paraphrasing Luther), God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does.<br /><br />Thanks for the post.jwskudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15641383927216557610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-44606714580839840052015-08-24T14:47:08.820-05:002015-08-24T14:47:08.820-05:00Thank you Rev. Beane. And we are right to do so. ...Thank you Rev. Beane. And we are right to do so. Not because Melanchthon pulled this assertion out of thin air, but because Melanchthon and we know the words of our Lord, Mark 3:28 "Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin." (Also in Matthew and Luke) We also know Hebrews 6:4, “It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding Him up to contempt.” <br />I have nowhere asserted that we cannot lose the Holy Spirit. My concern is twofold:<br />1. Where does Scripture say that anyone can lose the Holy Spirit and then have Him return?<br />2. What happens to people who think they may have committed a “manifest” sin, and have therefore lost faith and the Holy Spirit, and think that they are now outside of the Kingdom of God? We are coming close to the practice of the Pharisees, when we make very fine rules that can only be understood by highly trained theologians, and thereby cause God’s people to despair. <br />Peace and Joy!<br />George A. Marquart<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4778905687600416321.post-49686891167516884182015-08-24T13:00:05.567-05:002015-08-24T13:00:05.567-05:00Another thought:
If all you we can ever say abou...Another thought: <br /><br />If all you we can ever say about any Biblical text that describes the life of the Christian is, "You can't do these works, for you are sinful, in fact, if you even think about doing good works you are being proud and that is a sin" then something has gone terribly wrong.<br /><br />I just finished reading through a month or so worth of devotional reflections and only one out of the entire bunch contained anything resembling parenesis and nearly any of the devotions could have been written for any text under discussion.<br /><br />Formulaic. Rote. Boring. Depriving people of the whole counsel of God.<br /><br />The proper distinction between Law and Gospel frees the preacher to proclaim and teach the Word of God faithfully, it is not a rhetorical straight jacket into which every single thing one says is to be shoehorned into a pattern that often amounts to saying little other than: <br /><br />Yes, you are a sinner. Don't worry God loves you anyway and forgives you. <br /><br />Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.com